Subject: Tesla - 5 Man Acoustical jam
Bob,
The behind the scenes story is even a bit better and I've copied Cliff who may be able to shed some more light. Queenie did suggest we play accoustically at her club but we couldn't just play 1 show, so we booked an acoustic tour (I can't remember how many shows).
Well, before a show (either in Boston or Worcester), we went up to WAAF and played a couple of songs live on the air. Thought nothing of it, then finished up the tour including Philly which we recorded (one of us had the idea to record the show).
Several weeks (?) later, the Geffen radio/sales people in New England called to ask us on which album we had recorded "Signs" because the phones were ringing off the hook at 'AAF. Well it turns out that WAAF had recorded our little acoustic fly by and were playing Signs in rotation.
Fortunately (see above) we had recorded a show for the archives...
1+1 equaled 3 and we had an acoustic record.
I'm guessing Cliff suggested Signs as a cover (or the band) and I probably pushed to record the Philly show because we had just finished working with the Stones on Steel Wheels and I had gotten to work with Jagger as he put together 25x5 which was a video summary of the Stones (old TV shows, news footage etc). After watching "video history" I was determined that all of our artists document anything special they were doing (or hope it would turn out to be special).
While the theory may not have applied to Tesla (although they were fast becoming a big band), it definitely applied to the filming of the making of Metallica's Black Album (and we all got that one right!)
5 Man...was and is one of great management highlights. Which just shows, most times it's better to be lucky than smart.
Regards
Peter
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
___________________
From: Cliff Burnstein
Subject: Re: Tesla - 5 Man Acoustical jam
Just to add: Ron Valerie was the program director at WAAF. He was in the bathroom while Tesla did the interview and acoustic songs. The live feed was piped in all through their offices inc. the bathroom. Valerie heard "Signs" while making his restroom visit. He put it right into rotation after that, unbeknownst to us at the time. Ron is still at 'AAF today.
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Saturday, 15 September 2012
Giving Up
I want you to listen to Fred Armisen on Alec Baldwin's "Here's The Thing" podcast. Because he talks about giving up.
Sometimes you've got to do that.
Fred was in a band called Trenchmouth. With his buddies. For ten years. They toured not only the U.S., but Europe. With no roadies, lugging their own equipment up stairs, sleeping on floors. And Fred loved every minute of it.
Then he saw a forty year old drummer doing the same and he said "I don't want to be that guy."
There's a fallacy that if you just work hard and long enough, you'll make it. People heard about the 10,000 hours but didn't bother to read Gladwell's book. There are other factors, like timing.
I know this myself. I was frustrated with my reach and then all of a sudden the Internet blew up and I could reach people around the world for free! Before that... Positively desultory.
But even if the timing is bad, maybe you're just not good enough. It's hard to accept, but it could be true. Instead of slogging it out, maybe you should move on, consider music a hobby. Fred still plays his drums, just not professionally.
And there's always a story behind the story, it's never as seamless as these successes portray it. But Fred started filming bands (videotaping, before the YouTube era) at SXSW about their careers, using funny voices, and he built an audience for his productions. He went on tour with them. After playing with the Blue Man Group in Chicago for two years. Sure, that was drudgery, but he got paid and he learned so many things. Like the audience is there to be entertained.
And then, Fred moved to L.A. And he made friends.
That's how you make it in the music business. On both sides of the fence, businessman and player, via friends.
And now he's on SNL and "Portlandia."
And none of that would have happened if he continued to believe he must be a musician, that it was his only option, banging his head against the wall as his audience aged and he starved.
You can play. You can be a fan. Not everyone has to be a professional. Not everyone is gonna make it.
Fred dreamed of being as successful as the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
It never happened.
Fred Armisen on "Here's The Thing": http://www.wnyc.org/shows/heresthething/2012/sep/10/
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Sometimes you've got to do that.
Fred was in a band called Trenchmouth. With his buddies. For ten years. They toured not only the U.S., but Europe. With no roadies, lugging their own equipment up stairs, sleeping on floors. And Fred loved every minute of it.
Then he saw a forty year old drummer doing the same and he said "I don't want to be that guy."
There's a fallacy that if you just work hard and long enough, you'll make it. People heard about the 10,000 hours but didn't bother to read Gladwell's book. There are other factors, like timing.
I know this myself. I was frustrated with my reach and then all of a sudden the Internet blew up and I could reach people around the world for free! Before that... Positively desultory.
But even if the timing is bad, maybe you're just not good enough. It's hard to accept, but it could be true. Instead of slogging it out, maybe you should move on, consider music a hobby. Fred still plays his drums, just not professionally.
And there's always a story behind the story, it's never as seamless as these successes portray it. But Fred started filming bands (videotaping, before the YouTube era) at SXSW about their careers, using funny voices, and he built an audience for his productions. He went on tour with them. After playing with the Blue Man Group in Chicago for two years. Sure, that was drudgery, but he got paid and he learned so many things. Like the audience is there to be entertained.
And then, Fred moved to L.A. And he made friends.
That's how you make it in the music business. On both sides of the fence, businessman and player, via friends.
And now he's on SNL and "Portlandia."
And none of that would have happened if he continued to believe he must be a musician, that it was his only option, banging his head against the wall as his audience aged and he starved.
You can play. You can be a fan. Not everyone has to be a professional. Not everyone is gonna make it.
Fred dreamed of being as successful as the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
It never happened.
Fred Armisen on "Here's The Thing": http://www.wnyc.org/shows/heresthething/2012/sep/10/
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Friday, 14 September 2012
Final Amanda Palmer
Bob, just curious, did you get any negative emails from or hear of anyone criticizing Amanda Palmer who is more successful than she is? A great friend of mine always says, "When someone tries to bring you down...it's because they are already beneath you."
Casey Dinkin
__________________________________
Geez Bob - kerfuffle indeed. But why? It can't get any simpler. If you're a person, musician or not, who disagrees with Amanda Palmer's methods, you probably disagree with her aesthetic. That's neither bad nor good; it's just true. So if you don't see things from her point of view, don't play with her / attend her shows / buy her product / give a shit. None of the complaints are coming from anyone who has actually participated with her, correct? So WTF?
Basia Buffy
__________________________________
Amanda Palmer is a creative mad genius. In 2003 Oedipus from WBCN introduced us and we became fast friends. There are many stories to tell and I will take the blame for convincing her to sign with Roadrunner after every label told her no thank you. I also managed her solo career during the "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" album non-launch when Cees Wessel bailed on her. Because of my friendship and business relationship with her over the years I feel qualified to chime in and give an educated perspective on Amanda's recent accused skullduggery. Besides being a musical pioneer -she is a master at using social media and before social media she was a master at promotion and was always able to close the deal. She is a student of P.T. Barnum and a great salesperson who can sell ice to the eskimos. I could argue both sides on whether she should pay muscians to join her in on stage in each city. Yes- she raised over a million dollars on Kickstarter and probably should give some kind of financial reward to those muscians who play with her but she isn't twisting anyone's arm to get on stage with her. Egos always rule over logic and what upcoming musican wouldn't want to be on stage with Amanda Palmer? Knowing Amanda -she probably has already spent the Kickstarter money on her music/art and giving her fans the ultimate entertainment experience. Amanda is a true artist and show woman! People are jealous because she has the chutzpah to do what she wants without worrying about what people think. You're either in or you're out and no one can deny she stands and delivers. If you have a problem with Amanda Palmer then as we say in New Jersey "go fuck yourself"! "Genius is Pain"!
Harvey Leeds
__________________________________
I just wanted to say that Amanda Palmer has played shows for The Rumpus, my web magazine, and a lot of other places, for free. There has always been a free economy among artists, playing each other's shows for little or no money. Authors are the same way. I've written for dozens of literary magazines without expecting to get paid, even when they had a paid editor on staff. But when Esquire or Spin want me to write something I expect to get paid. That's the difference.
I made my first movie last year (hitting theaters in a couple of weeks) called About Cherry, featuring James Franco, Heather Graham, Lili Taylor, Dev Patel, and Ashley Hinshaw. It was a low budget film and every actor did it for the SAG minimum, which is about $250 a day. Artists want to work with other artists, and I've never met an actor who wasn't a real artist. Every actor wants to be in a movie that is good, that has integrity. Whether my movie achieved that is subjective, but the motivations of the actors are pure. That's the main reason low budget independent movies continue to get made, because well known actors want to make art, even though they don't have to.
When they work for Disney they have agents and managers ready to squeeze as much money as they can get.
Amanda Palmer is a real artist. She's worked on lots of people's projects without getting paid because she's a person who cares about making art. People want to play with her because they respect the integrity of what she's trying to do. That's how it works.
Stephen Elliott
__________________________________
I had opportunities to bat against Nolan Ryan and catch a long bomb from Joe Montana but I declined both cause they weren't willing to pay me the MLB and NFL minimum. Get a fucking life people! Life experiences aren't always about getting paid. Lighten up and have some fun. No one was mandating your participation, it's solely voluntary. Such rigid, inflexible thinking is unhealthy and counter to the innovative, experiential vibe Amanda Palmer is trying to create at her shows. Ever see a Neil Finn concert? The audience truly becomes a part of it. It's not a formulaic show, like what many artists deliver nightly.
Stuart K. Marvin
__________________________________
Bob,
Your mailbag has many perspectives, but I'd like to emphasize one point: Musicians who are starting out need to learn when to take opportunities, and when not to.
This includes when to open for national and touring artists. A new, local band will usually have to do this for free, without a guarantee there will be a great crowd.
In 2009 I got to play with Diane Birch. I outsold all the acts, including Diane, who was new on the scene then, because I was the local act and got my family and friends there. I didn't make money from the ticket sales, and I'm not complaining. I sold merch that night; that gig opened a few doors, and I've played that large club again.
I've done other gigs that were a waste of time, like a poorly attended charity event at a cool club that cost me more in gas than the charity raised.
Some gigs are worth doing for free. Most are not. When a musician is starting out, they need to figure out when it's worth it. No one can teach them this. We learn from striking out and hitting home runs.
I'd love to play at an Amanda Palmer show! It would help rejuvenate my spirits before taking on my next cover gigs that pay the bills. The people complaining simply haven't learned when to take opportunities, or when not to. They are jaded.
Mike Vial
PS: If Amanda Palmer paid these volunteer musicians $100-300 each, she'd take crap for that too. People are going to complain no matter what she does. Christ! Chicago Public Schools are on strike! Why aren't people taking about the state of our teachers and the classrooms being overly filled? This level of outrage over AP is ridiculous.
__________________________________
Don (via Bob)
have you looked up her ticket prices?
I'm seeing her in Toronto, at the Phoenix (~1000 seater concert theatre and club) for $23 Canadian per ticket, where I'll be no more than 65 feet from the stage...
This summer I saw Florence and the Machine put on a middling set at the Molson Amphitheatre for ~$70 per ticket, in the last section before the grass...
I saw Dead Can Dance put on an excellent set at the Sony Centre for ~$70 per ticket, middle of the theatre...
I'm going to see Peter Gabriel next week at the Air Canada Centre for ~$80 per ticket to sit in the third level, three quarters of the way to the back on the side...
She's not screwing her fans on ticket prices. And, though she and the band and the promoters will make out alright, I doubt she's going to buy a Bentley with the proceeds, even after merchandise is rolled in...
peace,
bud latanville
__________________________________
People get defensive when some one works the system to their advantage
The complaining musicians are just upset because they're not Amanda Palmer
Morley Bartnoff
__________________________________
ask johnny rotten. All press is good press in the end. Your true fans understand you and will stick with you and even defend you. The rest? Loudmouth discount dilemma. They shout you down but otherwise would offer you nothing in the first and final place.
Amanda doesn't need lemmings. She has scooted by that curve and is on the straight away. Wherever it leads.
Dennis Pelowski
__________________________________
Bob you might want to read how the same magazine that wrote about how Amanda Palmer can't pay musicians was on Craigslist because they claimed they can't pay their writers the week before publishing the story on Amanda Palmer.....
http://noisey.vice.com/blog/prefix-mag-cant-afford-to-pay-their-music-writers
Zack Starikov
(once a touring musician turned full time band manager / marketing associate at small indie)
__________________________________
I have to laugh at all the haters out there. She pays her touring band and stage crew. She's not asking for the local symphony players to gig with her, but for her fans to join in on the party.
She could've charged people some sort of gold package "meet & greet & play with me" thing for big dollars. Instead, she asked for fans who could play an instrument if they want to sit in on some songs FOR FREE! If she would've charged, people would be complaining about that.
Hey Amanda, if you need an extra drummer in Milwaukee, I'll sit in for free...
Bettine
__________________________________
As mentioned in some responses, this whole thing is a PR blunder more than anything else. Some ridicule publicists, but I for one would have STRONGLY advised AP to re-word her post to avoid this backlash. It's been made pretty clear that her touring band gets paid.
There's a local band here in Boston, Session Americana, who have musicians sit in with them all the time. These nights are some of the BEST nights of music I have ever seen. The camaraderie amongst the musicians is unforgettable. Do some come play for beers & hugs? Yes. But guess what? Not only don't they care, but as someone who has done some work with the band, I cannot count how many amazing musicians have asked me â€" "do you think you could ask Session Americana if I can sit in with them sometime?" Never ONE time has anyone asked if they'd get paid. Although the AP's shows are very different, they do share that feeling of community and joy it seems. And you can't really put a price on that.
All of this said, I have always fought for musicians to get paid fairly. This situation however, is entirely voluntary, and those who participate are doing so for what they feel is a once in a lifetime experience. And...I guess one could add to their resume "performed with Amanda Palmer on her 2012 tour", right?
Thanks for having a platform for these valuable discussions.
Susan Scotti
__________________________________
"The only people who think about money more than rich people are poor people"
...and there are so many ways to be poor.
These caustic responses have a tone of the selfish relatives of lottery winners.
Would the response be the same if it were the Rolling Stones or Tom Petty or any legacy(rich for a long time) performer? Or a true starving artist staffing the band from the crowd 10minutes before showtime?
Whats amazing to me is to think that implementing this idea on an extended concert tour will actually cost more in real time and money, than merely rounding-up and paying scale to local professionals.
This was an offer on amandapalmer.net; It's a fan club. And an offer made to her closest unknown "friends", and none of them will see this as anything but a wondrous experience.
True artists in any form create an experience...
Dan Thorsen
__________________________________
I think everyone is upset with what Amanda Palmer said and how she stated it. Getting this much press on the eve of her record release is probably what she really wanted and she got it by making a ruckus. Don't take the rest so seriously.
Peter Gianakopoulos
The Old School Records
__________________________________
I've been following this kerfuffle in some of my friends' Facebook posts, but haven't weighed in. I have mixed feelings about this, but the bottom line is, if somebody wants to play for free, it's their choice. I've done it a lot and will do so in the future.
Not too long ago, a friend of mine gave me some advice about being a professional musician that makes a lot of sense to me. It goes something like this:
There are 3 factors that determine the quality of a gig:
1) The Money
2) The Music
3) The Hang
If any two of those factors are positive in your view, it's a good gig; i.e. Good Music+Good Hang (but no Money)=Good Gig. Or, Good Money+Good Hang (but bad music)=Good Gig.
If there is only one factor that is positive, you may want to reconsider; i.e. Good Music (but no Money and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig. Or, Good Money (but bad Music and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig.
You get the idea.
The thing about this approach is that it's coming from the "Sideman" mentality. If you're trying to be an artist, then I feel you should do whatever YOU feel it takes to improve yourself and promote your work in any way that works for you.
Thanks!
-Dave Nelson
__________________________________
And one more thought- instances of people joining in on concerts spontaneously are mentioned. THAT is completely different! Amanda is SEEKING out musicians to WORK (learn her songs, practice @ sound check) in trade for some form of glory. So many people think that musicians are up there screwing around, and yes there are many who do. But the ones we want to HEAR are the ones that work hard at their craft and cultivate their talent. Transportation to the gig, strings, reeds, stage wear; these things are NOT FREE. Anybody who works for free is a sucker, simple and plain.
This has nothing to do with jealousy of her kickstarter campaign for the musicians I know that are upset by this; it just reminds us that, in addition to club owners that expect bands to work for free, publishers that expect writers to write for free (or whatever other arts-related skill one cares to mention) that now there is someone allegedly ON OUR SIDE (ie a fellow musician) who has not learned from climbing the ladder of success that working for free is bullshit.
Derek See
__________________________________
As a musician without traction and just getting started,,, I want to get paid but found it to be a hard thing to do in this economy... Live music has not died,,but is on life support.. I am luckily self employed. And in my day job i had to advertise and go out and find the work. I did it all for free with the hope i would get work. To me i see music business the same way. You have to put yourself out there so that people will know who you are...and that may involve playing for free so that you can advertise yourself live...if you are good enough, you will eventually get paid
Rusty Tillack
__________________________________
Several years ago I managed a band called The Poppies. It was a three piece post-psychedelic, group featuring Roger Greenawalt, Clifford Lane and Libby Martin. The live concept was based on a similar model to Amanda's with an inner core of experienced musicians and an open audition to anyone who could play at a reasonable level on the evening before or the afternoon of the show. People loved the idea and turned up in droves for the auditions.
We had some wild and very successful gigs in NYC, with stage and the audience practically exploding with people. As result of the buzz we scored a significant deal from Columbia but despite the deal and the backing of a major at a time (early 90's) when labels still had budgets for developing acts, we found it was financially and logistically impossible to take the concept on the road. With costs today so high, good on Amanda if she pulls this off.
Rory Johnston
__________________________________
am leasing from them for free to "promote" Mercedes. Fuck Amanda Palmer. We all know she spent 5k making that record and went and "bought" her own Mercedes. In reality I don't care because her band will suck and we will forget about her in 2 weeks.
It is no different then this....
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-306672.html
Devin Bronson
__________________________________
It is significant to me that I have read more about Amanda in the past few months than I have in the past ten years. Yet, I have not heard a note of this new music. Not on tradition mediums, not in a bar, not in a car blasting it driving by, not online and nobody has said, "You have to hear this song!"
It is hard to disagree with any of the sentiments in the mail bag. I do know that my return on investment for 10 years as a professional musician is at around 50 cents an hour. Don't get into it for the money and don't let money validate your success and you will enjoy yourself and others.
Will Dailey
__________________________________
I can understand why some musicians are upset by this. We all feel underpaid at times, and the more members in your band, the more mouths there are to feed. In the end this is not a black and white issue. If you are willing to play for free for a great experience, or some exposure, that's great. Just don't play for free all the time because people will start expecting it.
Alex Perry
__________________________________
You shouldn't dismiss the people denouncing this as just jealous or haters. It's not just people begging for internships who should have issue with this.
The problem is that it sets a bad precedent.
Why stop at day players. Why stop at "free beer and hi fives."
I'm sure with Amanda's status, she could start a kickstarter campaign with packages like $1.000 you get to guitar tech for her. $5,000 you get to drive her around on tour. $10,000 you get to do her accounting. I'm sure her loyal ad devoted fanbase would jump at those.
It's disgusting and abusive. Yes drum machines put people out of work, but it's a necessary advancement and worth the trade off.
What she's doing is bad for the economy.
I don't play cello, so it doesn't effect me one way or another, but people should have a problem with this. Way more than just other jealous musicians.
- Neil Rubenstein
__________________________________
Pay a person for work performed. Period. We can't sustain a business when folks like Amanda raise thousands of dollars and then don't pay a fair wage.
Yes there are plenty of musicians that will do it for free, and some opportunity costs are worth it but come on.
When we do free shows, like radio promo, free shows we still pay people for their time and talent.
Too many kickstarter artists raise a bunch of cash then don't use it to pay their bills.
Graham Kurzner
LuckiePierre Entertainment
__________________________________
An author contacted me the other day to ask if he could use a couple of quotations from an article of mine in a book he's writing about John McLaughlin. He also asked if I would be interested in reading a draft of the relevant chapter. I said yes on both counts.
A thank-you email arrived with the chapter attached. When I read it, I was sufficiently inspired to go searching for transcripts of interviews I'd done 40 years ago. It took me a while to find them and a lot longer to locate references to the young guitarist, but having identified a few paragraphs, I thought I might as well type them up.
All in all this took the best part of a day. And I don't even know the writer. No doubt some of your correspondents would label me a mug.
Best
John Pidgeon
__________________________________
Well, it is called the GRAND THEFT ORCHESTRA. No, seriously, though, she isn't forcing anyone at gunpoint to play for free, it is all a PERSONAL CHOICE! Get over it people!
Jeremy Ferrick
__________________________________
My god Bob, most musicians with heart have played numerous gigs for a net loss. If you've got something to say and the skill and chops, all you need are audiences. It's always been my belief that rest will work itself out. I played with Sylvester in the 70s and if I actually had any money back then I would have paid for the education.
Sent from my iPhone
Gary D. Strauss
Strauss & Strauss, PLLC
__________________________________
Great comments, Bob. No one mentioned how the "dream" of this business has changed. Sure, Chuck Berry and every second-tier jazz musician in history has toured by picking up musicians in local cities. But that's not analgous to AFM.
When I was young you played because you knew that the payoff was money, fame, girls, and fun. Today, the odds of getting those things are so long that they are essentially zero. And adolescents and post-adolescents are different than they were forty years ago, as you've also addressed recently. Not just slower to grow up, but also more group-oriented. Not as tough in some ways, and not as fond of certain forms of competition. But nicer in some ways, too.
Having grown up too protected, too coddled, lacking toughening experiences, they yearn for authentic experience. More than ever kids play music to put a stake in the ground, to be an individual and to have unique experiences. So, of course playing with AFM is a great opportunity. It won't catapult them to fame unless they are incredibly lucky but it may be the high point of your career.
Or, as the head of one of the departments at Musicians Institute in Hollywood put it, "When we started the school we were creating session musicians, the next Larry Carlton or Hal Blaine. Now, the only time some of these students will ever spend making professional music is when they get onstage with a guest musician in the auditorium here at the school.
Phil Hood
Publisher, DRUM!
__________________________________
For as much that is written about AFP, I rarely hear anything about "the music".
And my guess, is that the music is really just a small part of the entire business. The shows, the events, the spectacles..... it's all part of what she's about. Whatever that is.
She's an entertainer. That's my take. And that's great.
But until she hits the mainstream (which is doubtful) and reaches a wider audience.... all we'll have is the music. And nobody's talking about it.
You've never talked about it. That I recall.
Which leads me to the conclusion that it's not spectacular. But I could be wrong.
Then again:
No one has sent me the latest youtube video of AFP's latest song.
Thanks,
Bill Seipel
__________________________________
For the last two years I've done a once a month show at a well-established Chicagoland club (FitzGeralds) which I bill as Ralph Covert's Acoustic Army. The "Army" is the audience which is the band... I post charts to my songs online and encourage audience members to bring whatever instruments they want and play along. I have both pro musicians with free nights who join in along with home players and beginners (I've had kids as young as 9 playing along as well.). I don't know until that night what will happen, and I've had everything from a 4 piece band backing me to full harmony choir to just me solo. I also have a dialogue with the audience so that they pick the songs. The musicians not only don't get paid, they pay a cover to be there. Doubters beware, but we've had some pretty great musical moments along the way.
No haters yet, but I'm sure if I had the amount of buzz Amanda has had they'd be lining up three deep to kick me. Whatever. It won't make me rich, but it sure contributes to my musical sanity. And it's a heck of a lot of fun for all involved.
Kerfluffles be damned. Good on Amanda Palmer and everyone else with the balls to try something new.
Best,
Ralph Covert
__________________________________
Glad to hear she made all that money, but God her voice is just so damn annoying!
Thanx,
Jeffrey Cane
__________________________________
Amanda's Kickstarter - let's remember she had to provide product to all those supporters. She didn't just pocket all that money. She had to manufacture things.
My 30-piece band opened for Dresden Dolls in Chicago last year. Amanda knows what she's doing and understands her core. That's what this is about, not getting freebie musicians.
I'm in a 30-piece based in Chicago. We travel all over the US. Individually we make nothing. We all have lives and families and jobs and other bands. Making art isn't a living, it's a way of life.
Bottom line - will people line up in droves to play with Amanda for free? Yes. All haters, look inward.
Andy Deitrich
__________________________________
Ask Kickstarter how much of that $1.2 million went to them... it's a sweet cash deal as all they have to do is run a website. Ok there is slightly more than that, but they don't do fulfillment and they definitely don't offer refunds if folks squelch on their promises. I've backed many a project, and at this point I'm about at 60% getting what I've paid for. Amanda Palmer is in that group who followed through.
Dave Parsons
__________________________________
For all the Amanda Palmer hoopla..I've never even heard anyone say a thing about her music. Does it move you? I've never heard it.
Sean Mormelo
__________________________________
The bartender gets paid the promoter gets paid the bathroom attendant gets paid the ticket takers get paid the merch guy gets paid the foh gets paid but the local starving back up guys don't get paid. This is bullshit. Even that drummer on 3rd street promenade makes a few bucks a day. What happened to the whole "we're in this together" attitude. It doesn't matter if she raised a million bucks or not. If she's part of the community, then spread the wealth. Or at least kick down a couple hundred bucks a night. I'm certainly not going take the side of "genius marketing" over the needs of struggling musicians.
And Chuck Berry paid his guys. Shit you can even
Make a couple bucks playing with 14 other bands at the Viper Room.
Bob Hamel
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Wow.
I wish there was some way to calculate the demographics of the people that replied to you.
All the "she should pay!" people sound remarkably like the old-school-of-thought "they should pay $15 for a CD!" music execs.
I make music full-time. Yeah, it's not easy, financially. But I can't wrap my head around the people (musicians, even?!) excoriating her for this. It's utterly insane. Count me with Zoe Keating: all my best "breaks" have come from playing free shows (most notably, like Zoe, touring with Imogen Heap). It's the reason I can get in my car and play 200 shows in the last 12 months.
It's great to get paid... WHEN IT'S MY SHOW. She's not asking them to entertain for free, she's inviting them to share in the moment.
Granted, I'm a singer-songwriter, not a session player, and I know it's different, but there's a super-easy solution if you don't want to volunteer: don't.
To go to any effort whatsoever to criticize what she's done here is utterly incomprehensible.
-Levi Weaver
P.S. Careful re-posting the emails from people who disagree with you on this; they'll probably ask to be paid scale for their writing and insight. :)
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Here's a response to the Amanda Palmer situation written by someone who actually ran sound for her at one of her Kickstarter parties. I think what he wrote encapsulates the working musician's perspective in the most succinct and effective way. I write to you as a musician in a nationally touring band making a living from playing music. Our trumpet player performed with Amanda when she came to Brooklyn - and he was offered the gig again and turned it down - "not worth his time". Incidentally, I went to the same high school as Amanda and opened up for the Dresden Dolls occasionally over the first few years when they were just starting out.
Now I'm rambling, but I urge you to read this piece and consider the points the author is making.
http://justincolletti.com/2012/09/13/in-response-to-amanda-palmer/
Best regards, ?Sasha Brown
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While I have no problem with an Amanda Palmer asking for free horns and strings, (what else is new in the world of gigging) I think that the methodology is faulty, purely from a musical perspective.
With free help, one rehearsal, and supposedly "easy parts", the whole musical experience could suffer, either from mistakes or maybe from well played but simplistic dumbed-down arranging...The sound guy probably has instructions to mute at will, if things go south, anyway.
Nevertheless, I suppose that Ms. Palmer is equally open to the mathematically distant possibility that Sonny Rollins and Yo-Yo Ma would show up and give her a pro-bono sonic reach-around as well as the reality of the free labor musical market.
Most creators try and make the best music they can, and are particularly conscientious. I for one, would be hesitant to leave that much up to happenstance after having spilled my creative soul into writing the best parts that I could. Why include a part that is expendable?
I do appreciate her fearlessness/cheapness paradox cocktail and admire her ability to make things happen in her career and wish her well.
But I ask you, did Shakespeare envision meaningful elocution or a braying in-articulation for performance of his sonnets?
Chris McKenna
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Just because Palmer has the bandwidth to raise all that Kickstarter cash, doesn't mean that she can't reach out to see if smart, young talented musicians who know that the network is everything will take advantage of this experience. I would pay to play tambourine on that tour.
Just like baby band acts buy onto Live Nation opening slots. Perception and resume build is key. Unless as a musician you enjoy playing to dive bars your whole career.
Scott Brill-Lehn
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And what is the difference between ms palmer and Walmart paying their employees a substandard wage or the common practice of profitable companies replacing their paid workers with unpaid interns who have little or no hope of ever landing a job at that company? Sorry Bob, the music industry has been decimated, we're expected to make music for free and play for free. Take the fact that it's an art out of it and it's just another business. Few professionals are asking for handouts, merely fair compensation for their services. You are basically towing the republican line of "remove the burdens of regulations and minimum wage and free up the job creators". I do not fault ms palmer for raising 1.2 mil, for being successful, or for marrying a successful man of means but she should pay her employees for providing a service...ESPECIALLY as she has the means to.
Jack Morer
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Hell, I'm gonna hope this starts a trend. Jackson Browne is heading back out in October - I'm gonna go change the strings on my lap steels and watch Twitter like a hawk. :)
Tom Hampton
www.tomhampton.com
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1) this is bigger than AFP. its a big debate. I posted a super long comment on http://www.prefixmag.com about it, i had so much to say!
Lots of people have interesting (not sure if valid) points about the"giving the impression" that musicians don't need to be paid. But, I think they are making Amanda a scapegoat.
And, though I am an actual fan, I think she did make at least one mistake:
I was at the D.C. show last night ... (I didn't know any of the controversy until today) ... and, in retrospect, I think her mistake was not focusing on the "community" aspect enough.
As a local D.C. musician, myself, I would have been interested to know these people, would've looked them up. Amanda just didn't make a big deal about these string and horn players being LOCAL musicians, who were getting a chance to play with her in front of their hometown audience.
She asked for applause for them and stated more than once that they were "volunteers" but I got the impression that, even though they were on tour (which means expenses were paid), they were just foregoing a salary -- Amanda has gotten musicians to do that before, so it wouldn't be a new thing, but I was a little confused.
2) What musician isn't guilty of doing what some are reprimanding Amanda for doing?
I hire some musicians, and some musicians I ask to join me for fun. It depends on the situation and it depends on how much time they are investing, and whether or not I know they make their living as musicians or not. Just because I, myself, don't make much money doesn't mean I deserve to ask people to play for free, or that I shouldn't have to pay my friends who are working artists. pay them something. but, still, it depends!
3) Everyone is putting themselves in the shoes of the "volunteer" musicians, but not many are putting themselves in Amanda's shoes and really looking at it from her perspective.
If I was her, I'd probably do the same: be frugal, continue asking for some help from people in exchange for having a good time. I'd be grateful if people were willing to volunteer their time to add some finishing touches on the tour, and I'd be gracious if it didn't work out, but do the tour anyway.
4) Its not just that touring is expensive, or that the kickstarter money was essentially a pre-sale, but sustaining her career will continue to require money and it will be hard to duplicate the 1million dollar campaign.
From her own numbers, she might see $100K of her kickstarter million. She's very smart to act like there is NOT another million waiting around the corner, and she still has to save her pennies for future projects and tours.
thanks,
S. Fridrich Music
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honestly....the hype is all great stuff...but...bob...please...I'm looking for one a-palmer song that warrants the hoopla ...one wonderful moment...something that makes it all make sense...all the best to her for succeeding and making progress in the realm of the impossible...but please...just point out one sonic treasure that makes it all worth the hype...if it is the sum-total of her 'thing' then a-ok...but is there anything aural that I am missing?
royds
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You play music for Fun or Money
If you're not getting either, don't do it
Blessed when you get both
Paul Kochanski
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If the music sucks...
I don't dig musicians that expect to get paid for anything when they can't bring anyone out to the gig to pay for tickets. I've turned down shit loads of paying gigs because im not into the music. But the very few musicians I know who I call friends, I'll play free with just for the good times.
These wannabes that think they should get paid, no problem book a gig where the bar lets you collect ticket sales at the door. Bar keeps booze cash, you get door. Count number of people, if less than 100-200, it's your fault for not having an audience.
Boo, boo, VMware gives free software, my company can't afford to give free. See you later, you go out of biz. Imagine If google tried to sell their search features, they'd of failed pretty fast.
A friend asked me to play a few gigs with him where the venue paid us each seperatly. $50. I said I don't want the cash it makes me feel like selling my performance is cheepening the experience. It was not good thinking my time is only worth $50. I'd rather play free and once I build demand I can worry about cash then and likely make tons more. But other musicians always want cash and forget about building an empire the way google did it. Google is smart. Musicians are too messed up with hype and expectations, they tend to believe in things that are not real.
Carl Foggin
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I love your letter, and usually enjoy the way you see things and help to encourage a discussion about current music biz topics.
This one however, I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand that you may be applauding her for thinking "outside the box", and this whole thing will likely not only supply her with marginally adequate (and desperate) musicians, but enough press to earn her more notoriety and fuel ticket sales by friends of those "selected" marginally adequate musicians to be able to see their wannabe buddies up on stage. All that said, this issue at it's core has a major problem; exploitation. And no matter how cool this idea might be, the principle is wrong and should not be allowed or tolerated or celebrated. Where will it end? Why not also support the company who has come up with a brilliant way to cut costs by employing child labor? Or a major company like Apple saying "Hey Apple fans... come and help us put together our latest iphones for a day... we'll buy you a beer and give you and Apple tshirt, and you'll have a cool story that you can tell all your friends." That's thinking outside the box, isn't it? Why is this any different, and OK?
She is zeroing in on musicians; people who are already hard-up and fighting a battle for survival in a country where popular culture is constantly chipping away at the idea that a musician is a skilled person, and that the service they provide is worth compensation. I don't care how much money she has raised, or what she does with it. If she wants a "professional-ish" string and horn section to perform with her onstage, they deserve to be paid. She isn't inviting people who are in the audience to come up and jump up and down on stage and have fun with her, without having any time commitment, talent and/or skill, and just for fun. She is specifically advertising for musicians who are "professional-ish", which means to me "not professionals, but perhaps weekend warriors", or those who are required to have a day job, because there aren't enough gigs in their local market to sustain themselves as sole musicians. She is asking them to come to a daytime rehearsal, be able to play proficiently, be able to read music, and perform with her onstage for her concert. That's quite a time commitment, and high set of standards. She's looking for skilled workers (musicians) to help her manufacture her product (a live musical performance), which she will then sell (tickets) and keep all the profits (aside from a beer and a tshirt, which probably will cost her $0-$5 if she is shrewd), herself.
If she wants something for free... then she should provide something for free. Hold her concert at a school... she can work with the musicians for the afternoon day in their classes, where she shares something with them about making it in the music biz, and the students then rehearse with her. Then the students can play a concert with her at night, and the profits from the sales of the concert can be shared to pay her a fee, AND to be funneled back into the music department. That sounds fair, to me.
Otherwise, if you are to agree with this theory of her exploiting musicians, then I would like to invite you to come and help me write my book about the music business, which I will be selling to the public. I will buy you beer, give you a tshirt with the name of the book on it, give you a hug and a high five, but I will keep all the profits myself. I'll be sure to thank you inside the book for your help, where I will let everyone know that you did that work for free, and perhaps that will lead to more requests from other people asking you to work for free. You will receive no other compensation or credit, but you will for sure have an experience that you will remember for the rest of your life. I'm sure that will be more than enough compensation for you, your time, and your skill and talents that you lend my book.
Larry Lelli
professional musician, conductor, educator & author
New York, NY
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I see bigger issues at hand here. I know it is an oft debated topic, but to me this goes back to the discussion of the ethics of Kickstarter. Unlike stock markets, there is no equity gained in the venture when a donation is made, and there is no governing body to make sure the money is used to benefit those that have invested. The purpose of the donation is to allow the person to use the funding as they see fit to create their singular vision. Your $20 donation does not constitute a binding agreement where you are then able to then influence the direction of the creation or how the funding is used. That already exists, it is called a stock market. If that is what you are looking for, go buy some stock and attend shareholder meetings...
We live in a supply and demand world. If professional musicians are willing to play with her for free, it is obviously because they feel they are receiving some other value (be it experience, notoriety, exposure, ect.) Maybe it is the business man in me, but I don’t think it is her responsibility to pay money on top of the consideration they are apparently already receiving. If she was not able to find people to play for free, she would pay, such is life...
If you feel scammed by Amanda, you've really put it upon yourself. There is no Securities and Exchange Commission for Kickstarter. Don’t donate to her in the future. Refuse to play for her for free. Just hope everyone else does as well.
Matt S. Benson
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Wow... all of these angry musicians spitting their bile... about what? I wasn't familiar with Amanda Palmer before I started reading this stuff. I checked out the Kickstarter video, the explanation of where all the money is going/went, the offer for the "musicians" to participate in her shows and even a couple of her blog posts. What's the big fuckin' deal? From reading the letters it's obvious that most of these complainers didn't bother reading the details of the explanation of where the money is going. Like a lot of people in today's political climate, they start with the conclusion they seek, then jump up and down spouting their outrage without a true understanding of that which they bitch about.
Look, there's assholes in every walk of life. Amanda Fucking Palmer( love that name, btw) doesn't seem to be one of them. A lot of her critics, on the other hand...
All of the haters out there who whine and cry that they should be paid for their performances, you're right. You should be. When you go get the gig and do the work, you should be paid. If you get an offer to play and there's no money, feel free to turn it down. But AFP's not looking to hire YOU. She's inviting her fans, with at least marginal command of the instrument, to join the band on stage and participate for a couple of songs. Perfect for musicians who have other jobs or are in school and who play for the love of music and want a taste of playing with someone like AFP. She's willing to come early, hang with them, teach them their small, easy parts, get them into the show for free, give them some merch, raid the backstage hospitality tables & coolers, etc. and have a great time for the evening as party of the AFP Grand Theft Orchestra. What a great way to connect with fans, make new friends, etc. I don't play horns or strings, nor do I know her music, but she sounds like a lot of fun to hang with, and I'd do it in a heartbeat if she sought guitarists. She seems like a blast.
What? She wants people who can actually play the instrument? Of course she does. She's not stupid. She's not looking for Itzhak Perlman or Sonny Rollins. But she doesn't want someone who inherited Aunt Bessie's violin and can make screeching noises by dragging the bow across the strings either. I wouldn't want to sit in the audience and endure that. I imagine her fan-base is probably full of college student musicians and the like who would love to sit in for a couple of songs for the fun of it. They get it. It's fun.
I may not be a big-time national artist, but I'm a professional musician, I play for money and pay my band. I complain about 'weekend warriors' who have regular jobs and their garage bands who will play the bars for free or next-to-nothing, just to have people to play to, making it harder for those of us who do it for a living to make ends meet. I love to be paid. I negotiate in good faith and make it a point to try to get the best deal for each gig. But I don't pay every musician who happens to be at a gig and sits in with me for a couple of songs. "You blow harp? Great. You any good? Yeah? C'mon up. Let's give it a try. To be fair, if you suck, we'll stop. If not, let's have some laughs and see where it goes. I'll buy you a beer or two." That kind of spontaneity is a lot of fun. I don't ask for pay if I'm at someone else's gig and they invite me to sit in either. I sang a song or two with Michelle Shocked at a show earlier this year. She was so great. Lot's of fun. Didn't ask her for a dime. Had a blast.
Some people need to get over themselves and quit bloviating about how another artist interacts with their fans. She's not hiring a fucking band in each city. She put the offer out. Only the interested need reply. They'll do a little bit of homework to try to ensure that the music in the show doesn't suck. Big fat hairy deal. Some people need to pull the stick out of their ass and remember why they first started playing music: because it's fun. Having fun playing music is a way of life. I love playing with great musicians and go to lengths to surround myself with really talented people. But I don't care how amazing a musician these haters are, if I had unlimited financial resources, I wouldn't hire them simply for their attitude. They don't sound like they'd be that much fun to play or hang out with. There are too many talented musicians out there to waste time playing with people who behave like douchebags. Our music may be different, but I'd play with Amanda Palmer anytime... even for free.
Charlie Imes
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If I were a musician and she asked me to play I would be there in a heartbeat. I might also ask her to tweet my info to her 650, 291 followers.
"Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
--Derek See "
Didn't Paul McCartney just play the Olympics for free?
Juliett Rowe
Atlanta
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I've been playing professionally since '95 and full-time for the better part of the past ten years. I just got out of it and damn it feels great. There's no business left to do in this business. People just laugh at bands these days.........and I do too!
Donovan Pyle
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Casey Dinkin
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Geez Bob - kerfuffle indeed. But why? It can't get any simpler. If you're a person, musician or not, who disagrees with Amanda Palmer's methods, you probably disagree with her aesthetic. That's neither bad nor good; it's just true. So if you don't see things from her point of view, don't play with her / attend her shows / buy her product / give a shit. None of the complaints are coming from anyone who has actually participated with her, correct? So WTF?
Basia Buffy
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Amanda Palmer is a creative mad genius. In 2003 Oedipus from WBCN introduced us and we became fast friends. There are many stories to tell and I will take the blame for convincing her to sign with Roadrunner after every label told her no thank you. I also managed her solo career during the "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" album non-launch when Cees Wessel bailed on her. Because of my friendship and business relationship with her over the years I feel qualified to chime in and give an educated perspective on Amanda's recent accused skullduggery. Besides being a musical pioneer -she is a master at using social media and before social media she was a master at promotion and was always able to close the deal. She is a student of P.T. Barnum and a great salesperson who can sell ice to the eskimos. I could argue both sides on whether she should pay muscians to join her in on stage in each city. Yes- she raised over a million dollars on Kickstarter and probably should give some kind of financial reward to those muscians who play with her but she isn't twisting anyone's arm to get on stage with her. Egos always rule over logic and what upcoming musican wouldn't want to be on stage with Amanda Palmer? Knowing Amanda -she probably has already spent the Kickstarter money on her music/art and giving her fans the ultimate entertainment experience. Amanda is a true artist and show woman! People are jealous because she has the chutzpah to do what she wants without worrying about what people think. You're either in or you're out and no one can deny she stands and delivers. If you have a problem with Amanda Palmer then as we say in New Jersey "go fuck yourself"! "Genius is Pain"!
Harvey Leeds
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I just wanted to say that Amanda Palmer has played shows for The Rumpus, my web magazine, and a lot of other places, for free. There has always been a free economy among artists, playing each other's shows for little or no money. Authors are the same way. I've written for dozens of literary magazines without expecting to get paid, even when they had a paid editor on staff. But when Esquire or Spin want me to write something I expect to get paid. That's the difference.
I made my first movie last year (hitting theaters in a couple of weeks) called About Cherry, featuring James Franco, Heather Graham, Lili Taylor, Dev Patel, and Ashley Hinshaw. It was a low budget film and every actor did it for the SAG minimum, which is about $250 a day. Artists want to work with other artists, and I've never met an actor who wasn't a real artist. Every actor wants to be in a movie that is good, that has integrity. Whether my movie achieved that is subjective, but the motivations of the actors are pure. That's the main reason low budget independent movies continue to get made, because well known actors want to make art, even though they don't have to.
When they work for Disney they have agents and managers ready to squeeze as much money as they can get.
Amanda Palmer is a real artist. She's worked on lots of people's projects without getting paid because she's a person who cares about making art. People want to play with her because they respect the integrity of what she's trying to do. That's how it works.
Stephen Elliott
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I had opportunities to bat against Nolan Ryan and catch a long bomb from Joe Montana but I declined both cause they weren't willing to pay me the MLB and NFL minimum. Get a fucking life people! Life experiences aren't always about getting paid. Lighten up and have some fun. No one was mandating your participation, it's solely voluntary. Such rigid, inflexible thinking is unhealthy and counter to the innovative, experiential vibe Amanda Palmer is trying to create at her shows. Ever see a Neil Finn concert? The audience truly becomes a part of it. It's not a formulaic show, like what many artists deliver nightly.
Stuart K. Marvin
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Bob,
Your mailbag has many perspectives, but I'd like to emphasize one point: Musicians who are starting out need to learn when to take opportunities, and when not to.
This includes when to open for national and touring artists. A new, local band will usually have to do this for free, without a guarantee there will be a great crowd.
In 2009 I got to play with Diane Birch. I outsold all the acts, including Diane, who was new on the scene then, because I was the local act and got my family and friends there. I didn't make money from the ticket sales, and I'm not complaining. I sold merch that night; that gig opened a few doors, and I've played that large club again.
I've done other gigs that were a waste of time, like a poorly attended charity event at a cool club that cost me more in gas than the charity raised.
Some gigs are worth doing for free. Most are not. When a musician is starting out, they need to figure out when it's worth it. No one can teach them this. We learn from striking out and hitting home runs.
I'd love to play at an Amanda Palmer show! It would help rejuvenate my spirits before taking on my next cover gigs that pay the bills. The people complaining simply haven't learned when to take opportunities, or when not to. They are jaded.
Mike Vial
PS: If Amanda Palmer paid these volunteer musicians $100-300 each, she'd take crap for that too. People are going to complain no matter what she does. Christ! Chicago Public Schools are on strike! Why aren't people taking about the state of our teachers and the classrooms being overly filled? This level of outrage over AP is ridiculous.
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Don (via Bob)
have you looked up her ticket prices?
I'm seeing her in Toronto, at the Phoenix (~1000 seater concert theatre and club) for $23 Canadian per ticket, where I'll be no more than 65 feet from the stage...
This summer I saw Florence and the Machine put on a middling set at the Molson Amphitheatre for ~$70 per ticket, in the last section before the grass...
I saw Dead Can Dance put on an excellent set at the Sony Centre for ~$70 per ticket, middle of the theatre...
I'm going to see Peter Gabriel next week at the Air Canada Centre for ~$80 per ticket to sit in the third level, three quarters of the way to the back on the side...
She's not screwing her fans on ticket prices. And, though she and the band and the promoters will make out alright, I doubt she's going to buy a Bentley with the proceeds, even after merchandise is rolled in...
peace,
bud latanville
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People get defensive when some one works the system to their advantage
The complaining musicians are just upset because they're not Amanda Palmer
Morley Bartnoff
__________________________________
ask johnny rotten. All press is good press in the end. Your true fans understand you and will stick with you and even defend you. The rest? Loudmouth discount dilemma. They shout you down but otherwise would offer you nothing in the first and final place.
Amanda doesn't need lemmings. She has scooted by that curve and is on the straight away. Wherever it leads.
Dennis Pelowski
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Bob you might want to read how the same magazine that wrote about how Amanda Palmer can't pay musicians was on Craigslist because they claimed they can't pay their writers the week before publishing the story on Amanda Palmer.....
http://noisey.vice.com/blog/prefix-mag-cant-afford-to-pay-their-music-writers
Zack Starikov
(once a touring musician turned full time band manager / marketing associate at small indie)
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I have to laugh at all the haters out there. She pays her touring band and stage crew. She's not asking for the local symphony players to gig with her, but for her fans to join in on the party.
She could've charged people some sort of gold package "meet & greet & play with me" thing for big dollars. Instead, she asked for fans who could play an instrument if they want to sit in on some songs FOR FREE! If she would've charged, people would be complaining about that.
Hey Amanda, if you need an extra drummer in Milwaukee, I'll sit in for free...
Bettine
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As mentioned in some responses, this whole thing is a PR blunder more than anything else. Some ridicule publicists, but I for one would have STRONGLY advised AP to re-word her post to avoid this backlash. It's been made pretty clear that her touring band gets paid.
There's a local band here in Boston, Session Americana, who have musicians sit in with them all the time. These nights are some of the BEST nights of music I have ever seen. The camaraderie amongst the musicians is unforgettable. Do some come play for beers & hugs? Yes. But guess what? Not only don't they care, but as someone who has done some work with the band, I cannot count how many amazing musicians have asked me â€" "do you think you could ask Session Americana if I can sit in with them sometime?" Never ONE time has anyone asked if they'd get paid. Although the AP's shows are very different, they do share that feeling of community and joy it seems. And you can't really put a price on that.
All of this said, I have always fought for musicians to get paid fairly. This situation however, is entirely voluntary, and those who participate are doing so for what they feel is a once in a lifetime experience. And...I guess one could add to their resume "performed with Amanda Palmer on her 2012 tour", right?
Thanks for having a platform for these valuable discussions.
Susan Scotti
__________________________________
"The only people who think about money more than rich people are poor people"
...and there are so many ways to be poor.
These caustic responses have a tone of the selfish relatives of lottery winners.
Would the response be the same if it were the Rolling Stones or Tom Petty or any legacy(rich for a long time) performer? Or a true starving artist staffing the band from the crowd 10minutes before showtime?
Whats amazing to me is to think that implementing this idea on an extended concert tour will actually cost more in real time and money, than merely rounding-up and paying scale to local professionals.
This was an offer on amandapalmer.net; It's a fan club. And an offer made to her closest unknown "friends", and none of them will see this as anything but a wondrous experience.
True artists in any form create an experience...
Dan Thorsen
__________________________________
I think everyone is upset with what Amanda Palmer said and how she stated it. Getting this much press on the eve of her record release is probably what she really wanted and she got it by making a ruckus. Don't take the rest so seriously.
Peter Gianakopoulos
The Old School Records
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I've been following this kerfuffle in some of my friends' Facebook posts, but haven't weighed in. I have mixed feelings about this, but the bottom line is, if somebody wants to play for free, it's their choice. I've done it a lot and will do so in the future.
Not too long ago, a friend of mine gave me some advice about being a professional musician that makes a lot of sense to me. It goes something like this:
There are 3 factors that determine the quality of a gig:
1) The Money
2) The Music
3) The Hang
If any two of those factors are positive in your view, it's a good gig; i.e. Good Music+Good Hang (but no Money)=Good Gig. Or, Good Money+Good Hang (but bad music)=Good Gig.
If there is only one factor that is positive, you may want to reconsider; i.e. Good Music (but no Money and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig. Or, Good Money (but bad Music and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig.
You get the idea.
The thing about this approach is that it's coming from the "Sideman" mentality. If you're trying to be an artist, then I feel you should do whatever YOU feel it takes to improve yourself and promote your work in any way that works for you.
Thanks!
-Dave Nelson
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And one more thought- instances of people joining in on concerts spontaneously are mentioned. THAT is completely different! Amanda is SEEKING out musicians to WORK (learn her songs, practice @ sound check) in trade for some form of glory. So many people think that musicians are up there screwing around, and yes there are many who do. But the ones we want to HEAR are the ones that work hard at their craft and cultivate their talent. Transportation to the gig, strings, reeds, stage wear; these things are NOT FREE. Anybody who works for free is a sucker, simple and plain.
This has nothing to do with jealousy of her kickstarter campaign for the musicians I know that are upset by this; it just reminds us that, in addition to club owners that expect bands to work for free, publishers that expect writers to write for free (or whatever other arts-related skill one cares to mention) that now there is someone allegedly ON OUR SIDE (ie a fellow musician) who has not learned from climbing the ladder of success that working for free is bullshit.
Derek See
__________________________________
As a musician without traction and just getting started,,, I want to get paid but found it to be a hard thing to do in this economy... Live music has not died,,but is on life support.. I am luckily self employed. And in my day job i had to advertise and go out and find the work. I did it all for free with the hope i would get work. To me i see music business the same way. You have to put yourself out there so that people will know who you are...and that may involve playing for free so that you can advertise yourself live...if you are good enough, you will eventually get paid
Rusty Tillack
__________________________________
Several years ago I managed a band called The Poppies. It was a three piece post-psychedelic, group featuring Roger Greenawalt, Clifford Lane and Libby Martin. The live concept was based on a similar model to Amanda's with an inner core of experienced musicians and an open audition to anyone who could play at a reasonable level on the evening before or the afternoon of the show. People loved the idea and turned up in droves for the auditions.
We had some wild and very successful gigs in NYC, with stage and the audience practically exploding with people. As result of the buzz we scored a significant deal from Columbia but despite the deal and the backing of a major at a time (early 90's) when labels still had budgets for developing acts, we found it was financially and logistically impossible to take the concept on the road. With costs today so high, good on Amanda if she pulls this off.
Rory Johnston
__________________________________
am leasing from them for free to "promote" Mercedes. Fuck Amanda Palmer. We all know she spent 5k making that record and went and "bought" her own Mercedes. In reality I don't care because her band will suck and we will forget about her in 2 weeks.
It is no different then this....
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-306672.html
Devin Bronson
__________________________________
It is significant to me that I have read more about Amanda in the past few months than I have in the past ten years. Yet, I have not heard a note of this new music. Not on tradition mediums, not in a bar, not in a car blasting it driving by, not online and nobody has said, "You have to hear this song!"
It is hard to disagree with any of the sentiments in the mail bag. I do know that my return on investment for 10 years as a professional musician is at around 50 cents an hour. Don't get into it for the money and don't let money validate your success and you will enjoy yourself and others.
Will Dailey
__________________________________
I can understand why some musicians are upset by this. We all feel underpaid at times, and the more members in your band, the more mouths there are to feed. In the end this is not a black and white issue. If you are willing to play for free for a great experience, or some exposure, that's great. Just don't play for free all the time because people will start expecting it.
Alex Perry
__________________________________
You shouldn't dismiss the people denouncing this as just jealous or haters. It's not just people begging for internships who should have issue with this.
The problem is that it sets a bad precedent.
Why stop at day players. Why stop at "free beer and hi fives."
I'm sure with Amanda's status, she could start a kickstarter campaign with packages like $1.000 you get to guitar tech for her. $5,000 you get to drive her around on tour. $10,000 you get to do her accounting. I'm sure her loyal ad devoted fanbase would jump at those.
It's disgusting and abusive. Yes drum machines put people out of work, but it's a necessary advancement and worth the trade off.
What she's doing is bad for the economy.
I don't play cello, so it doesn't effect me one way or another, but people should have a problem with this. Way more than just other jealous musicians.
- Neil Rubenstein
__________________________________
Pay a person for work performed. Period. We can't sustain a business when folks like Amanda raise thousands of dollars and then don't pay a fair wage.
Yes there are plenty of musicians that will do it for free, and some opportunity costs are worth it but come on.
When we do free shows, like radio promo, free shows we still pay people for their time and talent.
Too many kickstarter artists raise a bunch of cash then don't use it to pay their bills.
Graham Kurzner
LuckiePierre Entertainment
__________________________________
An author contacted me the other day to ask if he could use a couple of quotations from an article of mine in a book he's writing about John McLaughlin. He also asked if I would be interested in reading a draft of the relevant chapter. I said yes on both counts.
A thank-you email arrived with the chapter attached. When I read it, I was sufficiently inspired to go searching for transcripts of interviews I'd done 40 years ago. It took me a while to find them and a lot longer to locate references to the young guitarist, but having identified a few paragraphs, I thought I might as well type them up.
All in all this took the best part of a day. And I don't even know the writer. No doubt some of your correspondents would label me a mug.
Best
John Pidgeon
__________________________________
Well, it is called the GRAND THEFT ORCHESTRA. No, seriously, though, she isn't forcing anyone at gunpoint to play for free, it is all a PERSONAL CHOICE! Get over it people!
Jeremy Ferrick
__________________________________
My god Bob, most musicians with heart have played numerous gigs for a net loss. If you've got something to say and the skill and chops, all you need are audiences. It's always been my belief that rest will work itself out. I played with Sylvester in the 70s and if I actually had any money back then I would have paid for the education.
Sent from my iPhone
Gary D. Strauss
Strauss & Strauss, PLLC
__________________________________
Great comments, Bob. No one mentioned how the "dream" of this business has changed. Sure, Chuck Berry and every second-tier jazz musician in history has toured by picking up musicians in local cities. But that's not analgous to AFM.
When I was young you played because you knew that the payoff was money, fame, girls, and fun. Today, the odds of getting those things are so long that they are essentially zero. And adolescents and post-adolescents are different than they were forty years ago, as you've also addressed recently. Not just slower to grow up, but also more group-oriented. Not as tough in some ways, and not as fond of certain forms of competition. But nicer in some ways, too.
Having grown up too protected, too coddled, lacking toughening experiences, they yearn for authentic experience. More than ever kids play music to put a stake in the ground, to be an individual and to have unique experiences. So, of course playing with AFM is a great opportunity. It won't catapult them to fame unless they are incredibly lucky but it may be the high point of your career.
Or, as the head of one of the departments at Musicians Institute in Hollywood put it, "When we started the school we were creating session musicians, the next Larry Carlton or Hal Blaine. Now, the only time some of these students will ever spend making professional music is when they get onstage with a guest musician in the auditorium here at the school.
Phil Hood
Publisher, DRUM!
__________________________________
For as much that is written about AFP, I rarely hear anything about "the music".
And my guess, is that the music is really just a small part of the entire business. The shows, the events, the spectacles..... it's all part of what she's about. Whatever that is.
She's an entertainer. That's my take. And that's great.
But until she hits the mainstream (which is doubtful) and reaches a wider audience.... all we'll have is the music. And nobody's talking about it.
You've never talked about it. That I recall.
Which leads me to the conclusion that it's not spectacular. But I could be wrong.
Then again:
No one has sent me the latest youtube video of AFP's latest song.
Thanks,
Bill Seipel
__________________________________
For the last two years I've done a once a month show at a well-established Chicagoland club (FitzGeralds) which I bill as Ralph Covert's Acoustic Army. The "Army" is the audience which is the band... I post charts to my songs online and encourage audience members to bring whatever instruments they want and play along. I have both pro musicians with free nights who join in along with home players and beginners (I've had kids as young as 9 playing along as well.). I don't know until that night what will happen, and I've had everything from a 4 piece band backing me to full harmony choir to just me solo. I also have a dialogue with the audience so that they pick the songs. The musicians not only don't get paid, they pay a cover to be there. Doubters beware, but we've had some pretty great musical moments along the way.
No haters yet, but I'm sure if I had the amount of buzz Amanda has had they'd be lining up three deep to kick me. Whatever. It won't make me rich, but it sure contributes to my musical sanity. And it's a heck of a lot of fun for all involved.
Kerfluffles be damned. Good on Amanda Palmer and everyone else with the balls to try something new.
Best,
Ralph Covert
__________________________________
Glad to hear she made all that money, but God her voice is just so damn annoying!
Thanx,
Jeffrey Cane
__________________________________
Amanda's Kickstarter - let's remember she had to provide product to all those supporters. She didn't just pocket all that money. She had to manufacture things.
My 30-piece band opened for Dresden Dolls in Chicago last year. Amanda knows what she's doing and understands her core. That's what this is about, not getting freebie musicians.
I'm in a 30-piece based in Chicago. We travel all over the US. Individually we make nothing. We all have lives and families and jobs and other bands. Making art isn't a living, it's a way of life.
Bottom line - will people line up in droves to play with Amanda for free? Yes. All haters, look inward.
Andy Deitrich
__________________________________
Ask Kickstarter how much of that $1.2 million went to them... it's a sweet cash deal as all they have to do is run a website. Ok there is slightly more than that, but they don't do fulfillment and they definitely don't offer refunds if folks squelch on their promises. I've backed many a project, and at this point I'm about at 60% getting what I've paid for. Amanda Palmer is in that group who followed through.
Dave Parsons
__________________________________
For all the Amanda Palmer hoopla..I've never even heard anyone say a thing about her music. Does it move you? I've never heard it.
Sean Mormelo
__________________________________
The bartender gets paid the promoter gets paid the bathroom attendant gets paid the ticket takers get paid the merch guy gets paid the foh gets paid but the local starving back up guys don't get paid. This is bullshit. Even that drummer on 3rd street promenade makes a few bucks a day. What happened to the whole "we're in this together" attitude. It doesn't matter if she raised a million bucks or not. If she's part of the community, then spread the wealth. Or at least kick down a couple hundred bucks a night. I'm certainly not going take the side of "genius marketing" over the needs of struggling musicians.
And Chuck Berry paid his guys. Shit you can even
Make a couple bucks playing with 14 other bands at the Viper Room.
Bob Hamel
__________________________________
Wow.
I wish there was some way to calculate the demographics of the people that replied to you.
All the "she should pay!" people sound remarkably like the old-school-of-thought "they should pay $15 for a CD!" music execs.
I make music full-time. Yeah, it's not easy, financially. But I can't wrap my head around the people (musicians, even?!) excoriating her for this. It's utterly insane. Count me with Zoe Keating: all my best "breaks" have come from playing free shows (most notably, like Zoe, touring with Imogen Heap). It's the reason I can get in my car and play 200 shows in the last 12 months.
It's great to get paid... WHEN IT'S MY SHOW. She's not asking them to entertain for free, she's inviting them to share in the moment.
Granted, I'm a singer-songwriter, not a session player, and I know it's different, but there's a super-easy solution if you don't want to volunteer: don't.
To go to any effort whatsoever to criticize what she's done here is utterly incomprehensible.
-Levi Weaver
P.S. Careful re-posting the emails from people who disagree with you on this; they'll probably ask to be paid scale for their writing and insight. :)
__________________________________
Here's a response to the Amanda Palmer situation written by someone who actually ran sound for her at one of her Kickstarter parties. I think what he wrote encapsulates the working musician's perspective in the most succinct and effective way. I write to you as a musician in a nationally touring band making a living from playing music. Our trumpet player performed with Amanda when she came to Brooklyn - and he was offered the gig again and turned it down - "not worth his time". Incidentally, I went to the same high school as Amanda and opened up for the Dresden Dolls occasionally over the first few years when they were just starting out.
Now I'm rambling, but I urge you to read this piece and consider the points the author is making.
http://justincolletti.com/2012/09/13/in-response-to-amanda-palmer/
Best regards, ?Sasha Brown
__________________________________
While I have no problem with an Amanda Palmer asking for free horns and strings, (what else is new in the world of gigging) I think that the methodology is faulty, purely from a musical perspective.
With free help, one rehearsal, and supposedly "easy parts", the whole musical experience could suffer, either from mistakes or maybe from well played but simplistic dumbed-down arranging...The sound guy probably has instructions to mute at will, if things go south, anyway.
Nevertheless, I suppose that Ms. Palmer is equally open to the mathematically distant possibility that Sonny Rollins and Yo-Yo Ma would show up and give her a pro-bono sonic reach-around as well as the reality of the free labor musical market.
Most creators try and make the best music they can, and are particularly conscientious. I for one, would be hesitant to leave that much up to happenstance after having spilled my creative soul into writing the best parts that I could. Why include a part that is expendable?
I do appreciate her fearlessness/cheapness paradox cocktail and admire her ability to make things happen in her career and wish her well.
But I ask you, did Shakespeare envision meaningful elocution or a braying in-articulation for performance of his sonnets?
Chris McKenna
__________________________________
Just because Palmer has the bandwidth to raise all that Kickstarter cash, doesn't mean that she can't reach out to see if smart, young talented musicians who know that the network is everything will take advantage of this experience. I would pay to play tambourine on that tour.
Just like baby band acts buy onto Live Nation opening slots. Perception and resume build is key. Unless as a musician you enjoy playing to dive bars your whole career.
Scott Brill-Lehn
__________________________________
And what is the difference between ms palmer and Walmart paying their employees a substandard wage or the common practice of profitable companies replacing their paid workers with unpaid interns who have little or no hope of ever landing a job at that company? Sorry Bob, the music industry has been decimated, we're expected to make music for free and play for free. Take the fact that it's an art out of it and it's just another business. Few professionals are asking for handouts, merely fair compensation for their services. You are basically towing the republican line of "remove the burdens of regulations and minimum wage and free up the job creators". I do not fault ms palmer for raising 1.2 mil, for being successful, or for marrying a successful man of means but she should pay her employees for providing a service...ESPECIALLY as she has the means to.
Jack Morer
__________________________________
Hell, I'm gonna hope this starts a trend. Jackson Browne is heading back out in October - I'm gonna go change the strings on my lap steels and watch Twitter like a hawk. :)
Tom Hampton
www.tomhampton.com
__________________________________
1) this is bigger than AFP. its a big debate. I posted a super long comment on http://www.prefixmag.com about it, i had so much to say!
Lots of people have interesting (not sure if valid) points about the"giving the impression" that musicians don't need to be paid. But, I think they are making Amanda a scapegoat.
And, though I am an actual fan, I think she did make at least one mistake:
I was at the D.C. show last night ... (I didn't know any of the controversy until today) ... and, in retrospect, I think her mistake was not focusing on the "community" aspect enough.
As a local D.C. musician, myself, I would have been interested to know these people, would've looked them up. Amanda just didn't make a big deal about these string and horn players being LOCAL musicians, who were getting a chance to play with her in front of their hometown audience.
She asked for applause for them and stated more than once that they were "volunteers" but I got the impression that, even though they were on tour (which means expenses were paid), they were just foregoing a salary -- Amanda has gotten musicians to do that before, so it wouldn't be a new thing, but I was a little confused.
2) What musician isn't guilty of doing what some are reprimanding Amanda for doing?
I hire some musicians, and some musicians I ask to join me for fun. It depends on the situation and it depends on how much time they are investing, and whether or not I know they make their living as musicians or not. Just because I, myself, don't make much money doesn't mean I deserve to ask people to play for free, or that I shouldn't have to pay my friends who are working artists. pay them something. but, still, it depends!
3) Everyone is putting themselves in the shoes of the "volunteer" musicians, but not many are putting themselves in Amanda's shoes and really looking at it from her perspective.
If I was her, I'd probably do the same: be frugal, continue asking for some help from people in exchange for having a good time. I'd be grateful if people were willing to volunteer their time to add some finishing touches on the tour, and I'd be gracious if it didn't work out, but do the tour anyway.
4) Its not just that touring is expensive, or that the kickstarter money was essentially a pre-sale, but sustaining her career will continue to require money and it will be hard to duplicate the 1million dollar campaign.
From her own numbers, she might see $100K of her kickstarter million. She's very smart to act like there is NOT another million waiting around the corner, and she still has to save her pennies for future projects and tours.
thanks,
S. Fridrich Music
__________________________________
honestly....the hype is all great stuff...but...bob...please...I'm looking for one a-palmer song that warrants the hoopla ...one wonderful moment...something that makes it all make sense...all the best to her for succeeding and making progress in the realm of the impossible...but please...just point out one sonic treasure that makes it all worth the hype...if it is the sum-total of her 'thing' then a-ok...but is there anything aural that I am missing?
royds
__________________________________
You play music for Fun or Money
If you're not getting either, don't do it
Blessed when you get both
Paul Kochanski
__________________________________
If the music sucks...
I don't dig musicians that expect to get paid for anything when they can't bring anyone out to the gig to pay for tickets. I've turned down shit loads of paying gigs because im not into the music. But the very few musicians I know who I call friends, I'll play free with just for the good times.
These wannabes that think they should get paid, no problem book a gig where the bar lets you collect ticket sales at the door. Bar keeps booze cash, you get door. Count number of people, if less than 100-200, it's your fault for not having an audience.
Boo, boo, VMware gives free software, my company can't afford to give free. See you later, you go out of biz. Imagine If google tried to sell their search features, they'd of failed pretty fast.
A friend asked me to play a few gigs with him where the venue paid us each seperatly. $50. I said I don't want the cash it makes me feel like selling my performance is cheepening the experience. It was not good thinking my time is only worth $50. I'd rather play free and once I build demand I can worry about cash then and likely make tons more. But other musicians always want cash and forget about building an empire the way google did it. Google is smart. Musicians are too messed up with hype and expectations, they tend to believe in things that are not real.
Carl Foggin
__________________________________
I love your letter, and usually enjoy the way you see things and help to encourage a discussion about current music biz topics.
This one however, I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand that you may be applauding her for thinking "outside the box", and this whole thing will likely not only supply her with marginally adequate (and desperate) musicians, but enough press to earn her more notoriety and fuel ticket sales by friends of those "selected" marginally adequate musicians to be able to see their wannabe buddies up on stage. All that said, this issue at it's core has a major problem; exploitation. And no matter how cool this idea might be, the principle is wrong and should not be allowed or tolerated or celebrated. Where will it end? Why not also support the company who has come up with a brilliant way to cut costs by employing child labor? Or a major company like Apple saying "Hey Apple fans... come and help us put together our latest iphones for a day... we'll buy you a beer and give you and Apple tshirt, and you'll have a cool story that you can tell all your friends." That's thinking outside the box, isn't it? Why is this any different, and OK?
She is zeroing in on musicians; people who are already hard-up and fighting a battle for survival in a country where popular culture is constantly chipping away at the idea that a musician is a skilled person, and that the service they provide is worth compensation. I don't care how much money she has raised, or what she does with it. If she wants a "professional-ish" string and horn section to perform with her onstage, they deserve to be paid. She isn't inviting people who are in the audience to come up and jump up and down on stage and have fun with her, without having any time commitment, talent and/or skill, and just for fun. She is specifically advertising for musicians who are "professional-ish", which means to me "not professionals, but perhaps weekend warriors", or those who are required to have a day job, because there aren't enough gigs in their local market to sustain themselves as sole musicians. She is asking them to come to a daytime rehearsal, be able to play proficiently, be able to read music, and perform with her onstage for her concert. That's quite a time commitment, and high set of standards. She's looking for skilled workers (musicians) to help her manufacture her product (a live musical performance), which she will then sell (tickets) and keep all the profits (aside from a beer and a tshirt, which probably will cost her $0-$5 if she is shrewd), herself.
If she wants something for free... then she should provide something for free. Hold her concert at a school... she can work with the musicians for the afternoon day in their classes, where she shares something with them about making it in the music biz, and the students then rehearse with her. Then the students can play a concert with her at night, and the profits from the sales of the concert can be shared to pay her a fee, AND to be funneled back into the music department. That sounds fair, to me.
Otherwise, if you are to agree with this theory of her exploiting musicians, then I would like to invite you to come and help me write my book about the music business, which I will be selling to the public. I will buy you beer, give you a tshirt with the name of the book on it, give you a hug and a high five, but I will keep all the profits myself. I'll be sure to thank you inside the book for your help, where I will let everyone know that you did that work for free, and perhaps that will lead to more requests from other people asking you to work for free. You will receive no other compensation or credit, but you will for sure have an experience that you will remember for the rest of your life. I'm sure that will be more than enough compensation for you, your time, and your skill and talents that you lend my book.
Larry Lelli
professional musician, conductor, educator & author
New York, NY
__________________________________
I see bigger issues at hand here. I know it is an oft debated topic, but to me this goes back to the discussion of the ethics of Kickstarter. Unlike stock markets, there is no equity gained in the venture when a donation is made, and there is no governing body to make sure the money is used to benefit those that have invested. The purpose of the donation is to allow the person to use the funding as they see fit to create their singular vision. Your $20 donation does not constitute a binding agreement where you are then able to then influence the direction of the creation or how the funding is used. That already exists, it is called a stock market. If that is what you are looking for, go buy some stock and attend shareholder meetings...
We live in a supply and demand world. If professional musicians are willing to play with her for free, it is obviously because they feel they are receiving some other value (be it experience, notoriety, exposure, ect.) Maybe it is the business man in me, but I don’t think it is her responsibility to pay money on top of the consideration they are apparently already receiving. If she was not able to find people to play for free, she would pay, such is life...
If you feel scammed by Amanda, you've really put it upon yourself. There is no Securities and Exchange Commission for Kickstarter. Don’t donate to her in the future. Refuse to play for her for free. Just hope everyone else does as well.
Matt S. Benson
__________________________________
Wow... all of these angry musicians spitting their bile... about what? I wasn't familiar with Amanda Palmer before I started reading this stuff. I checked out the Kickstarter video, the explanation of where all the money is going/went, the offer for the "musicians" to participate in her shows and even a couple of her blog posts. What's the big fuckin' deal? From reading the letters it's obvious that most of these complainers didn't bother reading the details of the explanation of where the money is going. Like a lot of people in today's political climate, they start with the conclusion they seek, then jump up and down spouting their outrage without a true understanding of that which they bitch about.
Look, there's assholes in every walk of life. Amanda Fucking Palmer( love that name, btw) doesn't seem to be one of them. A lot of her critics, on the other hand...
All of the haters out there who whine and cry that they should be paid for their performances, you're right. You should be. When you go get the gig and do the work, you should be paid. If you get an offer to play and there's no money, feel free to turn it down. But AFP's not looking to hire YOU. She's inviting her fans, with at least marginal command of the instrument, to join the band on stage and participate for a couple of songs. Perfect for musicians who have other jobs or are in school and who play for the love of music and want a taste of playing with someone like AFP. She's willing to come early, hang with them, teach them their small, easy parts, get them into the show for free, give them some merch, raid the backstage hospitality tables & coolers, etc. and have a great time for the evening as party of the AFP Grand Theft Orchestra. What a great way to connect with fans, make new friends, etc. I don't play horns or strings, nor do I know her music, but she sounds like a lot of fun to hang with, and I'd do it in a heartbeat if she sought guitarists. She seems like a blast.
What? She wants people who can actually play the instrument? Of course she does. She's not stupid. She's not looking for Itzhak Perlman or Sonny Rollins. But she doesn't want someone who inherited Aunt Bessie's violin and can make screeching noises by dragging the bow across the strings either. I wouldn't want to sit in the audience and endure that. I imagine her fan-base is probably full of college student musicians and the like who would love to sit in for a couple of songs for the fun of it. They get it. It's fun.
I may not be a big-time national artist, but I'm a professional musician, I play for money and pay my band. I complain about 'weekend warriors' who have regular jobs and their garage bands who will play the bars for free or next-to-nothing, just to have people to play to, making it harder for those of us who do it for a living to make ends meet. I love to be paid. I negotiate in good faith and make it a point to try to get the best deal for each gig. But I don't pay every musician who happens to be at a gig and sits in with me for a couple of songs. "You blow harp? Great. You any good? Yeah? C'mon up. Let's give it a try. To be fair, if you suck, we'll stop. If not, let's have some laughs and see where it goes. I'll buy you a beer or two." That kind of spontaneity is a lot of fun. I don't ask for pay if I'm at someone else's gig and they invite me to sit in either. I sang a song or two with Michelle Shocked at a show earlier this year. She was so great. Lot's of fun. Didn't ask her for a dime. Had a blast.
Some people need to get over themselves and quit bloviating about how another artist interacts with their fans. She's not hiring a fucking band in each city. She put the offer out. Only the interested need reply. They'll do a little bit of homework to try to ensure that the music in the show doesn't suck. Big fat hairy deal. Some people need to pull the stick out of their ass and remember why they first started playing music: because it's fun. Having fun playing music is a way of life. I love playing with great musicians and go to lengths to surround myself with really talented people. But I don't care how amazing a musician these haters are, if I had unlimited financial resources, I wouldn't hire them simply for their attitude. They don't sound like they'd be that much fun to play or hang out with. There are too many talented musicians out there to waste time playing with people who behave like douchebags. Our music may be different, but I'd play with Amanda Palmer anytime... even for free.
Charlie Imes
__________________________________
If I were a musician and she asked me to play I would be there in a heartbeat. I might also ask her to tweet my info to her 650, 291 followers.
"Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
--Derek See "
Didn't Paul McCartney just play the Olympics for free?
Juliett Rowe
Atlanta
__________________________________
I've been playing professionally since '95 and full-time for the better part of the past ten years. I just got out of it and damn it feels great. There's no business left to do in this business. People just laugh at bands these days.........and I do too!
Donovan Pyle
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Rhinofy-Five Man Acoustical Jam
In retrospect the debut is the best.
But this live album is my favorite. My favorite live album of all time, hell, I've listened to it enough!
The debut got traction. Especially with "Modern Day Cowboy"... That's on the live album too, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
You want to listen to "EZ Come EZ Go" and "Gettin' Better" and "Little Suzi" and "Cumin' Atcha Live." But mostly I didn't. I didn't get hooked until the second album, the vastly uneven "The Great Radio Controversy."
By 1989 CD players were de rigueur. And finally, we could program our favorite cuts. Want to know what killed the album? Not Napster, but the CD. You could listen to just the single, just your favorites, and there was no second side to give the CD bite. An hour plus of material was oftentimes impenetrable. At least in the days of vinyl you knew the second side opener was a killer, and the last cut on each side. They counted. What counted on a CD other than the opening cut? Which is why you should always put your best cut first, people may not get any further. Album sequencing? Best to worst, it's just that simple. Then again, we won't have albums to kick around that much longer...ha!
Anyway, there are three killer cuts on "The Great Radio Controversy," "Lazy Days, Crazy Nights," "The Way It Is" and "Love Song." Oh, eventually I came to love "Heaven's Trail (No Way Out)" and "Paradise," knowing them from the live album, and I'll admit "Party's Over" is a good closer, but there was a period in 1989 when I'd play the first three tracks in a loop, on repeat...FOREVER!
Let's start with "Lazy Days, Crazy Nights." It's the sound, the intro, like they're building a spaceship to Mars. The first note makes you want to sign up. To this heavy excursion, piloted by the production team of Michael Barbiero, a disco expert!, and Steve Thompson.
"But I love those lazy and crazy nights
It's my way, it's my life"
EXACTLY! If you know me, you know I'm a night owl. I'd stay up all night every night if I could. I love it when the sun goes down, the world is my own, people stop calling, e-mailing and texting, even if I never leave the house I'm on my own mental adventure.
But my favorite of the three, my favorite song on "The Great Radio Controversy," is "The Way It Is."
"Even though we could never seem to work things out
I still love you just the same
I miss your smile and that sparkle in your eyes
You're so beautiful, never change"
That's exactly how I felt. It takes a long time to let go after they move out. You're angry, but you're still connected. Over time, you feel warmer towards them, but at first you're in shock.
But what I love most about this verse is the way the song goes quiet, Jeff Keith is almost singing sotto voce, it's private, intimate...and for that reason intense.
And there's a great solo too!
And then comes the piece de resistance, "Love Song."
On "The Great Radio Controversy" there's a seemingly endless instrumental intro, which works perfectly because it sets the song up... After a minute, the music changes, it's like the sun is rising and...
"So you think that it's over
That your love has finally reached the end
Any time you call, night or day
I'll be right there for you, if you need a friend"
That's what you need when you're at loose ends, friends. Hopefully you didn't abandon yours when you got involved with your significant other, because loneliness kills.
But it's not forever.
That's the point of the chorus...
"Love is all around you
Love is knockin' outside your door
Waitin' for you is this love made just for two
Keep an open heart and you'll find love again, I know"
Yup, you'll lick your wounds and recover. Realize that's what everybody's looking for, connection. You'll get into a conversation and your heart will smile as well as your lips and you'll be in heaven. You've just got to hang in there.
And then the song explodes, the guitar wails...
And that's exactly what happened, "Love Song" exploded. Through a special effects video banged on MTV of a live show, you see the girl on the guy's shoulders and you just feel good all over. Hell, you know the power of music!
And then came "Five Man Acoustical Jam."
It was Queenie Taylor's idea. A promoter, who booked Slim's. She saw Tesla perform acoustically at the Bammies, she asked them to do so at a club. That's how greatness occurs, via happy accidents, often incited by another.
And you roll up that catalog and a few covers into a live show and you've got an album so infectious that you've got to get the DVD just to see it, to join in on the fun.
It's more than the songs, it's the narration, the offhand comments, you truly feel like you're there...
It begins with "Comin' Atcha Live," which has a totally different feel than the studio take on "Mechanical Resonance," it's like walking into a biker bar with country musicians pickin' and grinnin' and swilling beer and your body shakes and you smile and you feel like the world is your oyster.
"I'm a mean machine, I'm the kind you don't wanna meet
My middle name is trouble, I'm a danger in the street"
Acoustically this loses the edge and only the rebellion remains. The essence of rock and roll.
And "Comin' Atcha Live" merges into "Truckin'," a take any Deadhead would love if they could realize we share so many of the same roots, hard rockers and jam band fans.
And the second number is "Heaven's Trail (No Way Out)," which sounds like everybody in the club put on their boots and went out hiking into the wilderness, leaving civilization behind.
"You know there's nothin' like the real world to get me down
There's nothin' like the world outside that turns me upside down"
This is the essence of hard rock, of metal, the alienation. But it takes a new twist on "Five Man Acoustical Jam," because that's what it is...ACOUSTICAL! The songs gain colors and subtleties they never had in their hard rock incarnations.
And then come the hits. For me anyway!
Yup, a live rendition of "The Way It Is" that makes you want to buy a guitar and practice just to play this. The vocal is imperfect, but isn't life? On the studio take the instrumentation takes away from the meaning of the lyrics. Here, the words shine. I sing them in my head all the time.
"Try to see it my way
Do I have to keep on talkin' till I can't go on"
Yup, that's right, WE CAN WORK IT OUT! One of those magical Beatle numbers that make our hearts swoon. This is what we did, play these songs in a circle in the sixties, but now they were doing the same twenty five years later.
And then came the hit. A cover of the Five Man Electrical Band's "Signs."
Who even remembered this song? I mean it was carved into my DNA, but I thought I was alone, but it turned out this band from Sacramento much younger than me knew it too. And it's done half-seriously, half-jokingly, and as a result lightning is trapped in a bottle and a hit is born. Yup, a live cut riddled with imperfections broke through. Because it contains the essence of a hit... MAGIC!
And you've got to hear "Lodi" and "Mother's Little Helper" but don't miss "Love Song" and "Modern Day Cowboy," which takes on a greater darkness played acoustically. Sometimes you strip things down, get quiet, and songs take on even more meaning.
But really, you'll love every minute of "Five Man Acoustical Jam."
Or you won't.
You see we used to all listen to everything. Until rap, when a segment of the audience peeled off. Just after hard rock/metal separated from the mainstream.
And I never hear anybody talk about this album anymore, never mind this group. But I kept a cassette in my glovebox for fifteen years, just in case I needed a hit, a CD is within arm's reach.
And just like Cheap Trick, the band's career was derailed by a huge live album. "Psychotic Supper" has got the positively brilliant "What You Give" with the dynamics of a Led Zeppelin track, but the rest of the record was uneven and after such a huge commercial success, it was hard to get everybody's attention focused once again.
Yup, too much success can hurt. Just ask Alanis Morissette!
But this was before "Jagged Little Pill." Even before "Nevermind."
"I feel so lonely, yet I know I'm not the only one
To ever feel this way"
That's what it says in "What You Give." And ain't that the truth.
And that's one reason we have music, to fill up the space, to eradicate the loneliness.
And that's exactly what "Five Man Acoustical Jam" does. Squeeze out all the bad feelings and replace them with an exuberance that makes you live in the moment and anticipate greatness in the future. And the great thing is it's there whenever you need it, ready to be played, to lift you right up.
Spotify link: http://spoti.fi/p6HcZ8
Previous Rhinofy playlists: http://www.rhinofy.com/lefsetz
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But this live album is my favorite. My favorite live album of all time, hell, I've listened to it enough!
The debut got traction. Especially with "Modern Day Cowboy"... That's on the live album too, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
You want to listen to "EZ Come EZ Go" and "Gettin' Better" and "Little Suzi" and "Cumin' Atcha Live." But mostly I didn't. I didn't get hooked until the second album, the vastly uneven "The Great Radio Controversy."
By 1989 CD players were de rigueur. And finally, we could program our favorite cuts. Want to know what killed the album? Not Napster, but the CD. You could listen to just the single, just your favorites, and there was no second side to give the CD bite. An hour plus of material was oftentimes impenetrable. At least in the days of vinyl you knew the second side opener was a killer, and the last cut on each side. They counted. What counted on a CD other than the opening cut? Which is why you should always put your best cut first, people may not get any further. Album sequencing? Best to worst, it's just that simple. Then again, we won't have albums to kick around that much longer...ha!
Anyway, there are three killer cuts on "The Great Radio Controversy," "Lazy Days, Crazy Nights," "The Way It Is" and "Love Song." Oh, eventually I came to love "Heaven's Trail (No Way Out)" and "Paradise," knowing them from the live album, and I'll admit "Party's Over" is a good closer, but there was a period in 1989 when I'd play the first three tracks in a loop, on repeat...FOREVER!
Let's start with "Lazy Days, Crazy Nights." It's the sound, the intro, like they're building a spaceship to Mars. The first note makes you want to sign up. To this heavy excursion, piloted by the production team of Michael Barbiero, a disco expert!, and Steve Thompson.
"But I love those lazy and crazy nights
It's my way, it's my life"
EXACTLY! If you know me, you know I'm a night owl. I'd stay up all night every night if I could. I love it when the sun goes down, the world is my own, people stop calling, e-mailing and texting, even if I never leave the house I'm on my own mental adventure.
But my favorite of the three, my favorite song on "The Great Radio Controversy," is "The Way It Is."
"Even though we could never seem to work things out
I still love you just the same
I miss your smile and that sparkle in your eyes
You're so beautiful, never change"
That's exactly how I felt. It takes a long time to let go after they move out. You're angry, but you're still connected. Over time, you feel warmer towards them, but at first you're in shock.
But what I love most about this verse is the way the song goes quiet, Jeff Keith is almost singing sotto voce, it's private, intimate...and for that reason intense.
And there's a great solo too!
And then comes the piece de resistance, "Love Song."
On "The Great Radio Controversy" there's a seemingly endless instrumental intro, which works perfectly because it sets the song up... After a minute, the music changes, it's like the sun is rising and...
"So you think that it's over
That your love has finally reached the end
Any time you call, night or day
I'll be right there for you, if you need a friend"
That's what you need when you're at loose ends, friends. Hopefully you didn't abandon yours when you got involved with your significant other, because loneliness kills.
But it's not forever.
That's the point of the chorus...
"Love is all around you
Love is knockin' outside your door
Waitin' for you is this love made just for two
Keep an open heart and you'll find love again, I know"
Yup, you'll lick your wounds and recover. Realize that's what everybody's looking for, connection. You'll get into a conversation and your heart will smile as well as your lips and you'll be in heaven. You've just got to hang in there.
And then the song explodes, the guitar wails...
And that's exactly what happened, "Love Song" exploded. Through a special effects video banged on MTV of a live show, you see the girl on the guy's shoulders and you just feel good all over. Hell, you know the power of music!
And then came "Five Man Acoustical Jam."
It was Queenie Taylor's idea. A promoter, who booked Slim's. She saw Tesla perform acoustically at the Bammies, she asked them to do so at a club. That's how greatness occurs, via happy accidents, often incited by another.
And you roll up that catalog and a few covers into a live show and you've got an album so infectious that you've got to get the DVD just to see it, to join in on the fun.
It's more than the songs, it's the narration, the offhand comments, you truly feel like you're there...
It begins with "Comin' Atcha Live," which has a totally different feel than the studio take on "Mechanical Resonance," it's like walking into a biker bar with country musicians pickin' and grinnin' and swilling beer and your body shakes and you smile and you feel like the world is your oyster.
"I'm a mean machine, I'm the kind you don't wanna meet
My middle name is trouble, I'm a danger in the street"
Acoustically this loses the edge and only the rebellion remains. The essence of rock and roll.
And "Comin' Atcha Live" merges into "Truckin'," a take any Deadhead would love if they could realize we share so many of the same roots, hard rockers and jam band fans.
And the second number is "Heaven's Trail (No Way Out)," which sounds like everybody in the club put on their boots and went out hiking into the wilderness, leaving civilization behind.
"You know there's nothin' like the real world to get me down
There's nothin' like the world outside that turns me upside down"
This is the essence of hard rock, of metal, the alienation. But it takes a new twist on "Five Man Acoustical Jam," because that's what it is...ACOUSTICAL! The songs gain colors and subtleties they never had in their hard rock incarnations.
And then come the hits. For me anyway!
Yup, a live rendition of "The Way It Is" that makes you want to buy a guitar and practice just to play this. The vocal is imperfect, but isn't life? On the studio take the instrumentation takes away from the meaning of the lyrics. Here, the words shine. I sing them in my head all the time.
"Try to see it my way
Do I have to keep on talkin' till I can't go on"
Yup, that's right, WE CAN WORK IT OUT! One of those magical Beatle numbers that make our hearts swoon. This is what we did, play these songs in a circle in the sixties, but now they were doing the same twenty five years later.
And then came the hit. A cover of the Five Man Electrical Band's "Signs."
Who even remembered this song? I mean it was carved into my DNA, but I thought I was alone, but it turned out this band from Sacramento much younger than me knew it too. And it's done half-seriously, half-jokingly, and as a result lightning is trapped in a bottle and a hit is born. Yup, a live cut riddled with imperfections broke through. Because it contains the essence of a hit... MAGIC!
And you've got to hear "Lodi" and "Mother's Little Helper" but don't miss "Love Song" and "Modern Day Cowboy," which takes on a greater darkness played acoustically. Sometimes you strip things down, get quiet, and songs take on even more meaning.
But really, you'll love every minute of "Five Man Acoustical Jam."
Or you won't.
You see we used to all listen to everything. Until rap, when a segment of the audience peeled off. Just after hard rock/metal separated from the mainstream.
And I never hear anybody talk about this album anymore, never mind this group. But I kept a cassette in my glovebox for fifteen years, just in case I needed a hit, a CD is within arm's reach.
And just like Cheap Trick, the band's career was derailed by a huge live album. "Psychotic Supper" has got the positively brilliant "What You Give" with the dynamics of a Led Zeppelin track, but the rest of the record was uneven and after such a huge commercial success, it was hard to get everybody's attention focused once again.
Yup, too much success can hurt. Just ask Alanis Morissette!
But this was before "Jagged Little Pill." Even before "Nevermind."
"I feel so lonely, yet I know I'm not the only one
To ever feel this way"
That's what it says in "What You Give." And ain't that the truth.
And that's one reason we have music, to fill up the space, to eradicate the loneliness.
And that's exactly what "Five Man Acoustical Jam" does. Squeeze out all the bad feelings and replace them with an exuberance that makes you live in the moment and anticipate greatness in the future. And the great thing is it's there whenever you need it, ready to be played, to lift you right up.
Spotify link: http://spoti.fi/p6HcZ8
Previous Rhinofy playlists: http://www.rhinofy.com/lefsetz
--
Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
--
http://www.twitter.com/lefsetz
--
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Thursday, 13 September 2012
Re-Amanda Palmer
I just want to say that I would not be where I am today without years of playing for free or for expenses. I did this for years: opening for established acts, at tech conferences, at arts and ideas conferences, at conventions, at parties and art happenings.....almost anyone who would ask me and where I thought I might find an interesting and receptive audience. I always welcomed these opportunities. I wasn't very confident in social situations and I had terrible stage fright. Playing music was my way to participate, to feel like I belonged and to connect with people. It was also a valuable chance to try out my musical ideas for an audience and to learn how to cope with the stress. For years, that was payment enough. I lived cheaply and used the money I made from other sources (tech jobs, work as a session cellist, four years as member of Rasputina) to pay for my life so that if someone asked me to do go halfway around the world to play at some crazy event, I could say "Yes!".
As I got better, and more known, I got better opportunities but the best ones were still for free or for expenses-only.
On one occasion in 2005, I was asked by some artists to play at their event commemorating the 60th anniversary of the Trinity nuclear test. In the desert, with the help of fire and some huge diesel blowers, they planned to create a giant mushroom cloud at dawn. Could I play right after the explosion? It was a five hour drive to the desert, I'd have to protect the cello from dust and heat. No pay of course. It sounded wonderful. I composed a new piece of music for the occasion, practiced it for days and then headed out to the desert to camp out with and play for 100 total strangers. Xeni Jardin from Boing Boing was there and she covered the event. Shortly after that someone from NPR's Day to Day, who had also been there, invited me down to LA to play on the show. That was the first time my CD went to #1 on iTunes classical. A few months later Imogen Heap asked me to come on tour as cello-accompaniest and opening act...for expenses.
Now I have a booking agent and I get paid to perform but I still try and say yes to free concerts at intriguing or inspiring events. If I had to go back and do it all again, I would do it the same way. I think some people call it "paying your dues", but I call it the best time of my life.
Enjoy your emails. Thanks, Zoe Keating
__________________________________
you are exactly right, Bob. as i wrote on a grumpy musician friend's FB page
I can actually imagine how she might have steamed through all the
money she raised making her record, funding her obviously top-flight PR machine, her starving managers, paying old bills, etc. I can see why it might be kicky -- and part of her sleep with the fans next-level mindset -- to get volunteers to join her and her band in each town. I think the big mistake was saying she couldn't afford to pay musicians. I bet she's paid a lot of musicians in the past. But saying she couldn't afford it here was a PR blunder, not least because every working musician and ink-stained wretch who can't raise a million on Kickstarter was certain to be pissed.
Jamie Kitman
(manager of OK Go among others)
__________________________________
God, I've been online all afternoon trying to smack some sense into all these whinging wankers. FaceBook, PrefixMag...
SO many sour grapes out there...and SO little understanding of what it costs to run a business, tour, record, manufacture, market, promote and distribute an album on your own...oh AND GIVE TONS OF SHIT AWAY FOR FREE.
I'd play for her for free (but I do drink a lot).
Oy.
Hugo Burnham
__________________________________
Bob,
This isn't the first time people have played with Amanda for free. Art and music are her family. Fans have brought meals backstage to her shows, her bands have shared strangers' apartments found over Twitter. Audiences love the people she brings along with her. And this is how she's always done it, ever since the Dirty Business Brigade. The only difference is that now she's made news pulling in a million bucks for the new album and tour, and people want to tell her how to use it.
I was at the New York record release concert on Tuesday night, and it was magical. Love her or hate her, AFP definitely knows how to put on a spectacle. And if her critics realized how much artists love performing with her, maybe they could forget their criticisms, and go back to playing their own music. Maybe then they'd be able to build a family like hers.
A fan
Olivia Li
__________________________________
Most of the anger being directed towards Amanda Palmer seems to be from people who are only reading the poorly written, misleading articles that state she is unwilling to pay backing musicians and sites her as having 1.2 million in Kickstarter money to spend. All this despite the fact that she is touring with a core band of paid musicians and she has accounted for where all of the Kickstarter money went. She pays her touring and recording musicians, the people writing the articles about this omit that fact. I really don't see how she is hurting anyone here and many of the negative comments I'm reading about her start with "I've never heard of you before now but..."
Getting fan musicans to sit in as auxiliary band members is not an entirely new idea. Neil Finn did it a few years back on his "Band of Strangers Tour".
cheers,
Patrick Hayes
the Dead Volts
thedeadvolts.com
__________________________________
That kickstarter campaign was made possible by her fans. She's indebted to them and not the musicians bitching about getting paid (or not). I'm not a Palmer fan but definitely appreciate her alternate methods for taking care of her fans, her band and herself. I wonder if people would complain about this had she not raised a million bucks for her album which, again, she only owes her fans for.
Ask Scot Halpin if volunteering for a live gig is abysmal. I'm pretty sure he regrets nothing about volunteering to sit in with The Who for the fun of it.
- Dominic Del Bene
__________________________________
She could practically charge for the experience:
***Amanda Palmer Performance EXPERIENCE***
Come be a part of a big stage production with Amanda Palmer.
You get:
- An inside peek at Amanda's touring production.
- An afternoon rehearsal with instruction from Amanda and her band.
- A memorable once in a lifetime opportunity to perform 2-3 songs with Amanda and her band in front of a HUGE audience!
- Tickets to the show plus free beer and hugs!
Cost: $150 a person
Matt Butler
__________________________________
When Amanda said she couldn't afford musicians, the first thing I thought of is this:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
If you haven't seen it, it's her breakdown of where the million dollars was going, prior to successful funding.
I don't think of her as now part of the financial elite; rather, I think of her as someone who is now working at a large scale with little left over after self-funding the empire. As a musician, the individuals I see getting upset over this complain about Amanda in terms of her "entitlement" or "privilege," but honestly? I think the musicians who are getting angry over the idea of payment are the ones who are feeling entitled.
Amanda Palmer isn't forcing anyone to play for free-- it's a self-selecting group of musicians who are responding to her call to play. You want to play for free/fun/exposure? Then email her. You want to get paid for a high exposure gig? Then go elsewhere, if you can.
Olga Nunes
PS: Erica Mulkey, who performs as Unwoman, makes many of the same arguments I did but in SFWeekly, AND she chose to perform with Amanda Palmer for free: http://bit.ly/Pxuvcu
__________________________________
Hi Bob,
I saw Amanda Palmer on what I think was opening night of her current tour at Bard College. First thing I thought is, how the hell can she afford to bring 13 musicians on the road with her. Then I realized they were students at the school. It's genius, she gets to borrow their talent, they get a chance they otherwise would not have. While its cool that they had strings and horns, its the guys in her "touring" band that stole the show. Those guys rocked, extremely talented, and entertaining. I think a lot of what Amanda Palmer is doing is genius. Its just that her music doesn't resonate with me. If her music was half as good as her marketing the audience would be enormous. Now, I understand she has a very loyal fanbase and its great that she is able to raise that kind of money. I'ts just I have never read an article about Amanda Palmer which describes how amazing the music is, it's all how amazing her kickstarter campaign was. I don't mean to hate on Amanda Palmer either, its great what she is doing, and I realize maybe its just me that doesn't get her music. Its just a little like reading an article about how Apple scored a great deal on memory... who cares? .... Actually I do but, only after I fall in love with the product first, its then I want to know every little detail.
Pete Hanlon
__________________________________
People are criticizing her for not paying musicians who jump onstage for one show? You kiddin me? This is a small step away from demanding that Palmer pay the people who sit next to me and sing along with every word of every song at the live show. Short version: haters gonna hate. Palmer is just taking the after-show meet'n'greet and putting these folks on stage. How many other musicians are going to show up in town 12 hours early and go to a rehearsal to babysit every superfan who could get to a pawnshop and buy a student-model viola?
Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Patrick Ferguson
__________________________________
You are a clueless cockhead!
Diego Voglino - professional musician
Brooklyn, NY
__________________________________
Bob-
From the way the internet exploded, I expected a narcissistic and tone-deaf exposition on the delights of meeting Amanda Palmer. What I found is an invite for locals to sit-in. She's also offering free merch, which has real value if the moonlighter is a fan. I think I'll put my pitchfork away.
Best,
Alex Stern
__________________________________
She should just take it to the logical extreme and auction off the chance to play with her on eBay. Why beat around the bush? Let the market decide what it's worth.
Ian Kennedy
__________________________________
Where were the actors unions to complain when The Flaming Lips were inviting people to join them on stage in furry costumes and crazy outfits? It's all part of the show. Amanda's on the right track because she's on her own track.
Nakia
NAKIA.NET (http://nakia.net/)
__________________________________
I think the issue is at what point she crosses the border into exploitation of her fans. Let's not forget that this tour will probably sell out every night, so there is a nice nut there on top of all the money she already made in donations. fans have already "invested" by purchasing a ticket....does she really have to continually go to the well for more?
Don Bartlett
__________________________________
Yeah, I don't see why everyone is throwing shade. I know Amanda Palmer made mad paper off that Kickstarter, but I don't see why her asking people to play with her for free is a big deal. She's pretty up front from the start about the musicians not being paid, it's not like she asked people to play and THEN they find out they aren't getting paid. It's volunteer based. No one is forcing anyone to play with her. Knowing her fan base, I bet a lot of people would love to play a few songs with her, for free. I'd rather be told up front I wasn't going to be paid for something then find out after the fact.
Candice Jones
__________________________________
i think amanda palmer is loving more press. as she said on her kickstarter campaign, she was asking for her fans "to gather funds so that i have the capital to put it out with a huge fucking bang". we're now all contributing to the "bang" and we're not getting paid either.
robin danar
__________________________________
No one should have to work for free, regardless of the industry. Musicians should get paid to perform just as writers should get paid to write. Doing things for "exposure" is bullshit. Harlan Ellison said it best: Pay the writer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Scott Heisel // Managing Editor
Alternative Press Magazine
__________________________________
So...Palmer raises over a million dollars and then tries to get her fellow musicians to play for free...but the real problem is that those musicians...are haters? Quite the unfounded conclusion if you ask me -- especially for someone who seems to consider himself on the liberal-ish side of the political spectrum. I agree with you, however, that "Artists should have solidarity." The problem is -- solidarity generally doesn't involve said artists exploiting each other for financial gain.
Gotta' hand it to you, Bob -- when you're wrong, you're pretty spectacular about it...
Danny Shorago
__________________________________
Therein lies the root of all problems in almost every facet of life today Bob: I deserve it because I want it and not because I worked harder than everyone else for it.
To paraphrase Tyler Durden from Fight Club: "We all grown up believing we will become movie stars and millionaires. We won't."
Funny. It was an invitation to play with a great act. Could have been a good time, could have been more. Never know if you are too busy hanging out with the chip on your shoulder. If you don't want to play on the terms provided then don't.
John C. Taxiarchis, Esq.
__________________________________
Coming from experience, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing that she's offering free positions in her touring band. Its essentially an internship. The thing is....when these musicians (who some of which will be great) start bringing things to the table that amanda loves, and eventually feels like she can't do without, she'll be in a position where she needs to pay them to keep them on for tour number two or three. And also, no one with any type of a sincere heart, can continue to keep musicians on their tour for free for more than one tour, or maybe two max. She'll eventually realize how great they are, how much they add to the show, how much they add to the spectators experience, and finally that they are worthy of some type of salary. My guess is that she knows all this already, and is merely trying to find the best musicians she can and "build" them on the road. I've taken drum techs and merch guys on the road before for slightly over free, because we both agreed on the terms. They wanted to prove themselves, and I wanted someone to prove themself to me before I paid the going rate. And now I'm great friends with them to this day.
-dino campanella (drummer/keyboardist in dredg)
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Amanda's being innovative and she is looking for spontaneity every night and she will probably pull in a lot of people who will totally be down with doing this kind of work for free. What's lost on a lot of people is she NOT asking them to go on tour with her for 5-7 weeks. Just show up 1 night and make the experience fun and it gives every show a local flavor. I am willing to be that the people she has on her payroll are paid well and taken care of every night and day..
It's a sad but a true fact that when ever one band or musician does seem to make it there are always detractors willing to throw them under the bus. The music business is small in most towns, it would work so much better if musicians always talked positive about the bands that made it but that just isn't human nature. We saw this with the Alabama Shakes. Be careful behind every corner lurks a bitter musician....
Michael Creamer
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Bingo, Bob... Love her or not, Amanda is as loyal to her fans as they are to her. It's not as if she's socked away her Kickstarter take in the Cayman Islands or anything. She's used it to create things her fans love. And now she's offering some of those fans a chance to join her on stage. How is that, in any way, bad?
Steve Hochman
P.S. Remember when U2 would ask someone to come up from the audience and play guitar? How much did they pay to those kids? Did we hear anyone complaining? Hey, never mind that teen who took over for Keith Moon at that famous gig way back when!
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The Violent Femmes did this long before Ms Palmer. Their "Horns of Dilemma" was made up of friends and family and changed all the time. None of them got paid, but they had a lot if fun. No one got down on the Femmes for that.
Bettine
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Hey Bob,
If I was a fan of Amanda Palmer, I'd be absolutely thrilled to get a chance to play on stage with her. All the complainers just need to do is this:
If (enter your musical idol here) offered you an opportunity to play with them for one night, would you do it or free?
Of course you would. If you don't, you're a mercenary not an artist.
Also, why should musicians be so special that they never have to work for free? I would think that almost every person has worked for free in some form: volunteering, unpaid overtime, internships etc etc.
When did musicians become so entitled and boring? I'm embarrassed to be one by some of these reactions.
Keep preaching brother,
Joel Beeson
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Amanda Palmer was probably once just an artist. Then she worked very hard and managed to make herself a brand.
Amanda Palmer has now made over a million dollars, so like it or not she's basically a corporation in my mind.
I can only assume Dresden Dolls had tons of breaks, helping hands and freebies as they were struggling and up and coming. Now that she has had so much success, Ms. Palmer would do well to give back to the artistic community and provide a hand to other struggling musicians, by helping at least a few of them make a car payment or put a little food on the table.
Instead of closing the door behind her.
Bud Melvin
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"Volunteers wanted" - well I don't know, but doesn't that imply 'volunteering' i.e. gratis?
Shapeshifter
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I actually think what Amanda did is brilliant and very 'in'clusive. What semipro musician, who practices his butt off wouldn't love the chance to go hang with these guys, have a great time, and be 'one' of the band for a few hours. I agree getting paid is great, but payment isn't always about money. Amanda's offer isn't attractive for musicians living in Nashville, LA, or NYC, Austin & other major music centers where there's many opportunities to play as a session musician or live venue, because that's your day job.... but I don't think that's who she's targeting. I think she wants the guys / gals who are reasonably 'good' at their instrument who also love to play with others and all they want is an opportunity to be on stage & be part of the whole...... that's magical... better than sex kind of stuff..... I wonder why other artists are pissed.... it seems like kind of a cool thing. She was forthright, upfront and honest about what she expected and what the respondents could expect from the gig.... no one was told one thing and then a bait and switch. The benefit might be that someone who is truly gifted and the right fit gets connected in a way that would have not happened without this opportunity! Another benefit is, everyone will have a great time, because it will be somewhat organic..... What could be better than that!
Go Amanda, I love the way you think!
Robyn Taylor-Drake
Trio Productions, Inc / Songscape Music, LLC
www.trioproductions.com
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I was in a band that opened for Bjork on her VOLTA tour for 4 dates on the east coast and canada.
The last date was at Madison Square Garden. We played to about 1,500 ppl as first support, which in the Garden just feels pathetic, though I was happy just to do it (and barely make cab fare home in the process, the band made 500$ total for the slot).
What happened after that was pretty surreal.
Damien her musical director saw me and my bandmate watching the show from the side of the stage, and on their way out for their encore invited us to play the Reactable synth (that crazy $200k table looking thing with the shapes) with them for the last song.
Being on stage about 19,000 screaming fans in the garden, whether it was my band or not, was easily one of the highlights of my life and something I would pay to do again if I had the option.
I was blessed with the opportunity and experience, and while this isn't Bjork at MSG, anyone who feels the need to get paid (or offended by Amanda's gesture/request) for something like this is severely missing the fucking point.
Gaetano Licata
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Wow if she needed an electric guitarist, I'd be there in a heartbeat! Hell, if she's bringing beer then I'll even cook her dinner.
I've seen her live cause she gave me free tickets via Twitter, but that's not the only reason I'd do it for free. It goes back to the day in 2004 when my band played the small stage at a club in Toronto and Dresden Dolls had the large stage. She was sound checking playing War Pigs on piano. Tell me, who would pass up playing with a cool chick like that!
Cristina Bishop
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I work with synths and drum machines daily, and I *still* think she should be paying. This isn't about jealousy or neo-Luddite-ism, this is about compensating people for their time.
Would you attempt to hire a cabinet maker, or other skilled crafts person, in exchange for "beer and good times"?
No you goddamned would not.
Guitar amps cost money.
Strings cost money
Gas and lodging cost money.
You're out to lunch on this one, Bob.
Ian Campbell
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Dear Bob:
Amanda Palmer is not doing anything new. Check Berry was famous for flying into gigs with house bands at the ready to back him up, and he paid them next to nothing, if at all. The supporting bands just wanted to play with a legend. (See Wikepedia below).
My guess is that in the future, with rising costs of touring, many, many acts will be recruiting local talent for the very same reason. For Amanda, she has her own reasons, but hell, I'd back her up for free just for the enjoyment of being on stage with a good front person with good music and a strong following. It's a win-win for lesser known artists.
tribeca57
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As with your diatribe regarding parenting and children nowadays, you've hit another blind spot, commenting on something you know nothing about, and should have the common sense to refrain weighing in on. Easy to make blanket statements about issues that don't affect one personally, isn't it?
There are precious few paying gigs as it is in this new music biz economy. Her claim that she can't afford to pay her players is laughable. This entire thing is based on greed and arrogance, not progressive marketing ideology or egalitarian "new school" thinking.
For God's sake, figure out who YOUR audience is, and please get your head out of your ass.
Rick Elias
Artist Track Instructor
The Contemporary Music Center
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Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
Derek See
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Hi Bob,
As always, you nailed it.
Amanda Palmer couldn't have make much of a PR mistake. Her actions provoked you to write about it and tell it like it is. Hard for a musician to get better, more targeted PR than that.
Britt Benston
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Bob, I love the new technology, and was in awe of Ms. Palmer's kickstarter campaign. 1.2 million dollars. I touted her to friends as someone who seems to have gotten it right. It's a bit simplistic to lump everyone who may have an issue with her using free musicians into the "CD's forever drum machine hating progress denying reactionaries" club. I have a problem with this one narrow issue. In the article she said it would cost $35,000 to carry the extra musicians. It just seemed to me that when her project funding ballooned to1192% of her requested amount, there might have been a point where the thought "holy shit, I can bring the full complement out on this tour" might have happened. The world changes, I accept this. The thing people forget is, when change happens, some of the fighting isn't just about trying to go back to the way things were, it's how the new structure gets divvied up. Sheet music publishers in early phonograph days fought for mechanicals, etc. Sitting in with a big name for free to raise one's profile (or even just for the kicks) is a time honored tradition, but it's not cool when big names take advantage of that. It's also a dumb move publicity wise.
John Mulkerin
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Hey Bob, respectfully, I think you're wrong on this one.
I am not a fan of this woman's music - that's not the point. I was glad she was able to raise the money and all that, it was clever how she was able to pass off as independent when her career was made by the majors. Her fans deserve the real kudos.
But the issue here is that she did all of this **at the cost of her fans** and just because she got all her expenses paid by other people she now thinks she doesn't have to pay people to play. She continues to pass her expenses on to others. It seems that the money got to her head. What's next? Come clean my house for free! It's a great priviledge for you to be in personal space!
Basically she is acting like the big corporations - passing on the expenses to the customer and, because she generates business, she feels like the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to her. WRONG.
I think now the people who supported her will think twice. Basically she comes off as a very clever CEO. She's just another business person trying to pass off as "edgy" and "grassroots". I say her credibility will take a nosedive.
P.B.
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No hate here, as I do pro bono work in a few different spheres quite often.
I encourage anyone who feels they would enjoy the experience to play with Ms. Palmer.
It's just a question of nerve, really. I don't think I could ask my fan base who recently supplied me with 1.2 Million to volunteer their time to rehearse and play with me for free at events where I am making money, and use this as an ongoing business model.
But I must hand it to her: it is impressive that he has such devoted followers, who not only do her bidding, but are vehemently defending her in this situation.
My $0.02,
Jason Steidman
http://lightsweetcrude.ca
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There's no hate, it's just wrong. How can someone take your missives seriously Bob about the "middle class" and "fair pay" when you take a neutral position on Amanda Palmer's greed? It seems hypocritical to me.
Ms. Palmer "claims" she can't afford other musicians! And that it's a "privilege" to play for her. What a crock! If she just said that she
wanted free players and wasn't paying them, fine, but don't say you can't afford it after you banked $1.2M on Kickstarter alone, not even including the money made off of whatever else you auctioned off from you bedroom the day before.
Aren't there labor laws anyway? Maybe a petition should be started and then sent to the IRS.
Richard Young
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I think fear might be behind some of this hatred you describe and it's the fear that once the bar is lowered in this fashion it might be difficult to raise it again. Of course this doesn't involve the really good players but it certainly does any one less. And to be honest she isn't asking for really good players - I forgot how she described what she needs - so once again the weeding out of greatness occurs but so does the ability of the less than great to earn money.
I also think the hatred might also be directed toward the musicians who line up to do this. This all could have been avoided if she had just offered them a bit of money. Maybe she could have sold some merch on their behalf. Maybe she could have passed around a hat at the show. I meant, that's kind of what she's doing now only she's trying to fill the hat with string and horn players. Just something other than beer and hugs. Geez.
I have to admit this also reminds me of the days when I used to write music for TV commercials. Used to be that we were paid for all the work be put into making demos. Not a lot but enough to keep us going for the time we were spending. Seemingly all of a sudden composers were not only being asked to compose and produce demos for free but were being asked to do more than one or two. Some companies would hire outside composers - I shouldn't say "hire" because they didn't pay them - and submit MANY demos for free. Yes, this sort of reminds me of this. You might feel differently about this and I might even agree with some of your opposition but to me it is, among other things, just one more example of musicians being in a losing position. Once again this does not effect the great players. Maybe this will inspire more to become great. Yeah, right.
Love your newsletter - I've turned many on to you.
Best,
Stan Harrison
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Artists do have solidarity, which is why us artists are disgusted by the idea that a person who clearly has the means to pay musicians should ask for a "favor" under the guise that she is providing access to some exclusive club.
What is it about Amanda that you think makes her the arbiter of something new and groundbreaking while labeling the artists who cry foul as haters who probably have dial up internet and think that mp3s are the end of music business ?
That is far too simple a conclusion.
In the interest of full disclosure, I too did a campaign to fund a record (through Pledgemus). I applaud and support the concept of allowing fans more direct access. I think fans appreciate the window into the process of what it takes to make a record. Would I love to have raised 1.2 Million dollars? Absolutely. I would have love to raised even a tenth of that, but to characterize my disgust with her saying she can't afford to pay musicians as jealousy speaks volumes to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. I love drum machines and computer generated music and sampling and really fast internet. I'm sure I have a bunch of music on my computer that i didn't pay for. Hell, I even have a soft spot for Auto Tune. Even though I play guitar, if someone invented something that could convincingly replace the guitar, I'd buy one or possibly even two, but I know enough to know that what she's asking for is bullshit. I'm not a luddite. Alot of musicians were thrilled to know that it was possible for "one of us" to raise that kind of money. But for her to then turn around and say that she can't afford to pay is a clear indicator that she is NOT one of us. She's one of them. For you or her to say otherwise is to discount and marginalize every musician who has had to pile into a 15 passenger van to drive to some shitty town to play for 5 people in an effort to put in their "10,000 hours" all the while hoping they don't break a string or a snare head or run out of batteries or crack a cymbal because they need the gas money to get back to the town they call home.
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with an artist asking for people to play for free. I write great songs and I have a crew of first rate musicians who won't even LET me pay them for gigs because they believe in the music. The difference is that they do it for free because they know I don't have a million dollars. If I had even half of that, I wouldn't disrespect them by asking them to play for beer and hugs.
I'm sure that there are plenty of musicians that would love to play with her for free. I can guarantee you that not many of these people make music for a living. I know that makes me sound like an elitist dick, but it's true.
david ryan harris
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Sorry, Bob, but this isn't about envy or jealousy or anything other than a simple code that creative people live by.
The same code that has talented web designers fuming when clients demand spec work. Or when a couple planning a wedding doesn't understand how much WORK goes into photography. Work that needs to be paid for.
Yeah, they could all "suck it up" and "work harder" and maybe one day they'll earn the respect of "not getting asked to do stuff for free all the time".
But you know that's not true. Are you telling me no one in your life has ever bugged you for free legal or career advice? Made you feel obligated to oblige? Even if you say no, how does that make you feel?
Amanda Palmer didn't just have a successful Kickstarter. She blew the whole model out of the water. She made a million fucking dollars. I had a ton of respect for her until this happened.
She complains there's no money left over from recording and marketing to pay a paltry $35,000 to all the musicians she wants to use? She's legitimately claiming to be BROKE?
She is specifically asking for skilled musicians. For people that have put in the time to be good at what they do.
She is asking for pre-existing string quartets. For people that have spent EVEN MORE time above and beyond individual practice to be good, as a group, at what they do.
AND, let's not forget: she is asking for these services so that she can MAKE MORE MONEY. It's that simple.
We're too fucking savvy (thanks in part to people like you) to let this slide. This was not an accidental mistake that happened because Amanda Palmer is too busy blazing new ground to worry about every silly little detail. This was a calculated move that she has defended in the press.
But even if you argue "her fans want to be there, they're happy to play for free..."
Just because skilled musicians might be willing to play for free (because someone is using their status as a celebrity to influence them), it does not make it acceptable to take advantage of that willingness.
Brandon de la Cruz
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Bob,
Why do we have to be lumped in with the Luddites for believing that someone who can afford to pay her musicians should do so? It's like saying the owner of a tiny internet start-up is against innovation because he decided to take care of his employees... and then called out a larger and older corporation with, say, $1.2 million more cash on hand, for denying benefits.
I think generally people have been calling her out on it without dragging her person or her music into it. Artist 'solidarity' means not taking other folks' hard work or talent for granted, and it also means no sense of entitlement-- which you opine on frequently. In the age of Kickstarter, we all need to work a little on our sense of entitlement. I don't think of myself as either a charity case, or some special 'privilege' to play with-- and so I pay my backing band!
Harris
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You are so wrong on this one.
I don't have $1,000,000 and I pay my guys every night. Not paying is fucking bullshit and the same kind of crap musicians have to put up with everyday from idiots. She's not asking people to just come hang, she's asking for pro musicians "you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT!" and she wants you to make a rehearsal "you’d need to show up for a quickie rehearsal."
FUCK HER!
Dave Lang
P.S. A more reasoned response. If the discussion is framed around the concept of her asking her fans to participate in her shows by performing then that's great. Good on her. Not sure I'd want to pay to see it but so it goes. I'm sure there will be people who'll be happy to get up there and play along just to be involved. And their friends will probably buy tickets too - just like in the local bar when they have band warz. Everyone gets to play rock star for the evening.
It's when the discussion is around the concept of using musical interns to avoid paying working musicians that it pisses me off. She's not some struggling musician who can't afford to pay. She can afford it and she's choosing not to.
What motivates her more? I don't know. Who cares.
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Amanda Palmer fucked up here. She was not counting on that certain set of her fans. Perhaps she was forgetting where part of her appeal is.
What she does musically - that sort of artful cabaret chamber pop - attracts those fans that are professional musician-types: people who got pushed from a young age with their instrument, studied at conservatories and music schools racking up huge loans for to make what is relative peanuts playing in orchestras.
What they do get is to be called a "professional". And these people take that credential seriously. They worked hard and they want to be paid. They are dead serious about playing, but they aren't hungry for it in the same way most garage denizen rock and roll bands are.
I'm not knocking those professional musicians. Not at all. They just have a very different mentality than a lot of other people who play, especially rock.
Having once played in a shitty Replacements wannabe band (the furthest thing from "professional") and booking thousands of shows, I know the opportunity to share a stage with an artist you love trumps just about anything you can get paid. The first thing I think when we have a show where we can stick a local/regional act on is, "Who I know that would be most excited to get this gig?"
Now there's almost always a little money even for local support, but it's rarely significant. It usually ain't union scale! It is really about the joy of getting to do it and be part of a show with an artist that matters to you. I think that's what Amanda was going for but she was forgetting about the professionals in her fan base.
Around six or seven years ago, we did a Dresden Dolls date when we first opened Town Ballroom and Amanda and Brian put the word out (already using the web and social media of the time) to get performers to do a variety of carnival-themed acts to join them on stage. None of these performer fans were paid but they undoubtedly had an amazing time. And none of the local professional jugglers and clowns complained, either.
--
Donny Kutzbach
---
Funtime Presents
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wow, so now that record companies arent around to do it, artists will take care of exploiting other artists...
sure she seems like a nice enough person, and if it was an, "all welcome - come make noise on a big stage event" - I wouldnt say anything...
but expecting and requesting talent and asking for references... and not paying scale... looks like she's the one hating other artists...
but she's a broke musician, so it's ok? suppose she donated the extraneous kickstarter funds to some worthwhile charity to feed people, or buy kids shoes and school supplies
dan
if you havent printed my letters because you dont know who the fuck I am... well, still just a studio owner: soundsculptor.net ... if its because they arent any good...
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Bullshit, Bob.
She's not asking for hobbyists. She's asking for string players and saxophonists, a large chunk of whom probably went or are going to school to hone their craft. And if anyone's out there saying she should dole out union scale, I'd roll my eyes at that. It's two tunes and a rehearsal. But $50 is too much to give to someone who just made your show better and closer to the picture of it you had in your head? For me, it's the principle of the thing. If you're getting paid, pay those who are helping to make it happen.
You can say that she's trying to build a club, and clearly she has. But she's likely reaching beyond that club for this, and it's doubtful that she'll be doling out referrals to the folks that do sign up for this. And before we talk about how I'd jam with Bob Weir and Phil Lesh or the guys in Zeppelin for free, let's remember the difference - if I play with Phil and Bobby and whether anyone likes me or not, my name will immediately be on thousands of twitter feeds, Facebook pages and the like. With Amanda Palmer, someone might catch you for a split second on a cell phone video that they upload to YouTube. She should be making the pot a lot sweeter than she is at the moment.
Paul Abella
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Here's a crazy idea, why not pay the musicians scale for the night? What would that end up to cost? Seven musicians at scale, we're talking what...one thousand dollars maybe? I can understand using musicians from each town, Chuck Berry did that forever. But the move to not pay said musicians is a predatory douchebag move no matter how you or she try to spin it.
Oh, and she should shave her armpits!
Matt Siegel
7 Years Today
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This is brilliant and most regional players should kiss her feet to have an opportunity like this
Scott Brill-Lehn
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I remember a few years back going to see Green Day, when they were touring American Idiot. They had this wonderful gag where they invited up three people from the audience who 'had some skill' to play their instruments for a song. I think the show I saw at the Meadowlands was in front of about 70,000+ people, but I imagine they did it on every date of the tour. I don't remember hearing a single negative word about it, just heaps of praise, how cool they were for letting fans participate. As they say, it's not always the idea that counts, but rather the execution.
Taylor Brigode
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" You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat."
Bullshit. I know plenty of people who believe similar things about the future of music and commerce that share your view and they disagree with what Palmer is doing.
"And these players are the same ones decrying drum machines and synthesizers and every modern innovation that cost a single musician a job. If we had these people rule, we'd truly live in an "Atlas Shrugged" world. One where there's no innovation and the masses are a step behind."
Bullshit again. Well, partly. Plenty of professionals who use and love drum machines, synths and other innovative technologies are decrying Palmer's bullshit move.
Most of the folks that I know, who applaud Palmer's DIY spirit were surprised and disappointed she'd ask this of hard working professionals.
The size of the show is also irrelevant. I can play as a sideman and get at LEAST $100 a gig.
And it cost her a cool million for her new record? Aren't you the one always going on and on about how it's cheaper than EVER to record your own material? Hell, she could've built an unbelievable home studio for that money...
She can pay the rest of the band, but not horn or string players? Kind of insulting to horn and string players....
Hell, why pay any of the band members? Go big or go home, right? I guess string and horn players don't have rent to pay either.
I'm sure you've read Steve Albini's rant on this, but just in case:
http://stereogum.com/1151562/steve-albini-amanda-palmer-is-an-idiot/franchises/wheres-the-beef/
Again, I applaud Palmer for trying to find creative ways (which she's done well) to further her career, but this is kind of insulting, when you consider her fund raising capability.
Bill Seipel
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I'm a musician in Nashville, but would I play for free for the chance to share a stage with one of my favorite artists? In a heartbeat. I can play just about every Stones tune ever made, but the odds of Mick pulling me up to play "Tumbling Dice" is pretty slim. But would any instrument-wielding Stones fan do it for free, or hell, even pay for the opportunity? Sure.
Given that a ticket to a show in most of her venues I'm guessing would be $30-50 with fees, free admission and the chance to play with one of your favorite musicians (and a few free $10 beers, I'm hoping, at least), as a fan, it's a pretty good deal. She'd rather have amateurs who love her music than professionals just showing up and doing a job, and I don't blame her. As a musician, I could get on my soapbox about how everyone who plays on a stage, anywhere, should be getting paid, but I'd be a hypocrite since I'd jump onstage with any of my favorite artists in a heartbeat if I had the opportunity. Sure, it's a cost-cutting measure, but at the same time I think it's another brilliant way to further close the gap between artist and fan.
Moreover, from her description, it's for two or three songs. Not only a) is that ridiculous to hire musicians in every town to play for 10 minutes out of your set, but b) having heard her new record, I'm sure the sound that will be created will be something really unique for both the musicians and the audience. I really think the discussion on her site has been blown way out of proportion, and anyone arguing against what she's doing should think about what they'd do if they had the chance to spend 10 minutes onstage with their favorite band. Also, I'm wondering what these people's opinions are about Bono pulling up fans to play with U2, as he's done many times over the years (including at last year's Nashville show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNF13YQPmQ).
Also, I wonder if some of the angry posts (which seem to be from people who aren't familiar with Amanda besides articles they read about her Kickstarter) are people just wishing they'd thought of this first, or had the kind of fanbase capable of pulling this off at every show.
-Steve Cunningham
Nashville, TN
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Bob,
I think the community's primary issue with Amanda Palmer's request is not so much that she's asking musicians to play for free on what will undoubtedly be a profitable tour, but the condescension with which she does so. Offering payment in "beer and hugs" is comparable to bribing your bar buddies into helping you move -- not a glamorous duty or return. The problem here is with the language involved (and entitlement implied) in the request. Had it been phrased as more of a thinly-veiled contest, i.e. "Audition to play a show with us in your town!" the negative PR would likely be nil.
The uproar over this plea for free supporting musicians is, obviously, further compounded by the vast amounts her fans have already donated. "What happened to that money?" is what they're all asking. From the perspective of a "professional-ish" musician, we've done albums on obscenely miniscule budgets, we've toured in Toyota Camrys and paid rent late to press records in time for the release show. What has Ms. Palmer done with that $1.2 million that was handed to her? There is no transparency in regard to what happened with those donations, and thus it is questionable why a measly $100 or so for a quick sit-in gig couldn't be offered. I have no qualms with Kickstarter campaigns, nor with them accepting overruns of the initial goal, but that money should be used for the furthering of the project funded (which would include any tour supporting such a project). The question posed is why she deems it acceptable to stiff *any* musician playing with her, especially when it is a fan who has (most likely) already financially supported Palmer and her career, whether through Kickstarter or otherwise.
Admittedly, I am not a fan of Palmer's music. Were this an opportunity to sit in with Jack White, I would probably be singing a different song. I would challenge any musician, professional-ish or otherwise, to turn up their nose at an offer to play with one of their favorite artists. These opportunities arise often with no compensation (KISS's opening band, OurStage/Lilith Fair and Guitar Center/John Mayer's "King of the Blues" competitions from recent years come to mind). As I said, it's all in the language; the overwhelming entitlement with which the request is made is what makes it so disconcerting to hear this from an independent artist who (one would assume) should want to give back to the independent music community that has nurtured her and her endeavors so, especially after financing her album-and-then-some via the pockets of the very people she is approaching.
Then again, all press is good press in this industry, right? Perhaps this backlash was part of her plan all along. Either way, it will serve to do nothing more than increase her exposure, which is what her independent career has thrived on thus far. Touché, Ms. Palmer.
Ellie Maybe
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Amanda Palmer should come out and say what she actually does feel is worth her dipping into her own precious pocket to spend her own money on. Because clearly it's not any of the following:
Paying for her record
Paying for her tour
Paying for her PR/Marketing
Paying for her band
At some point the artist has to assume the financial risk all on his or her own. If she fails, she's only lost other people's money. Isn't risk inherent to art?
Amanda's clearly got the money she needs now. But still asking for fans to foot the bill? What's that saying, "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"?
Amanda Palmer is walking dangerously close to hog territory.
Jeremy Silver
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"Kickstarter Millionaire"? Please. I think with a title like that, and a lot of arguments being made, everyone needs to read this first:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
She specified where all the money is going. You get what you pay for. Perhaps she should have put some of that aside for her musicians to avoid the backlash? But that's here nor there. The tour, just like the Kickstarter call to action, is offering fans the opportunity to engage in her art. No one's being forced to contribute, or play in her shows. Some of the arguments made in her blog are by people insulted by Palmer's move, complaining they've been low-balled as professional musicians in wedding band gigs and the like. Please. This is an artist giving fans the chance to be a direct part of her act. I don't listen to her music, but regardless that sounds cool as hell for a fan.
Pissed you're not getting paid? Don't take the gig. Someone else will jump on that chance (and even pay to do it!). Hell, that's what my music industry internships were all about. There were plenty of times I was pissed for spending money to travel, and losing money not working at my part-time job, all while label execs were getting my free labor. But damn did I get to be a part of some cool stuff. And as a recent college grad, I'm proud to say I'm very much on my way to getting a paid industry job now. Take the opportunity for a night, enjoy it, then go back to your part time jobs and wedding gigs.
Deb Keller
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Reading the comments on AFP's post. Like reading comments on Free Republic. Hypocrisy, stupidity, irrational rage, misinformation, threats both dire and empty. Hatred amped up to the nth degree. Ah, Americans on the Internet. They love to huff and puff and blow, hoping someone's house falls down. No fan of AFP but I can only -- with this much ignorant hatred aimed her -- wish her great success.
Larry Prater
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As I got better, and more known, I got better opportunities but the best ones were still for free or for expenses-only.
On one occasion in 2005, I was asked by some artists to play at their event commemorating the 60th anniversary of the Trinity nuclear test. In the desert, with the help of fire and some huge diesel blowers, they planned to create a giant mushroom cloud at dawn. Could I play right after the explosion? It was a five hour drive to the desert, I'd have to protect the cello from dust and heat. No pay of course. It sounded wonderful. I composed a new piece of music for the occasion, practiced it for days and then headed out to the desert to camp out with and play for 100 total strangers. Xeni Jardin from Boing Boing was there and she covered the event. Shortly after that someone from NPR's Day to Day, who had also been there, invited me down to LA to play on the show. That was the first time my CD went to #1 on iTunes classical. A few months later Imogen Heap asked me to come on tour as cello-accompaniest and opening act...for expenses.
Now I have a booking agent and I get paid to perform but I still try and say yes to free concerts at intriguing or inspiring events. If I had to go back and do it all again, I would do it the same way. I think some people call it "paying your dues", but I call it the best time of my life.
Enjoy your emails. Thanks, Zoe Keating
__________________________________
you are exactly right, Bob. as i wrote on a grumpy musician friend's FB page
I can actually imagine how she might have steamed through all the
money she raised making her record, funding her obviously top-flight PR machine, her starving managers, paying old bills, etc. I can see why it might be kicky -- and part of her sleep with the fans next-level mindset -- to get volunteers to join her and her band in each town. I think the big mistake was saying she couldn't afford to pay musicians. I bet she's paid a lot of musicians in the past. But saying she couldn't afford it here was a PR blunder, not least because every working musician and ink-stained wretch who can't raise a million on Kickstarter was certain to be pissed.
Jamie Kitman
(manager of OK Go among others)
__________________________________
God, I've been online all afternoon trying to smack some sense into all these whinging wankers. FaceBook, PrefixMag...
SO many sour grapes out there...and SO little understanding of what it costs to run a business, tour, record, manufacture, market, promote and distribute an album on your own...oh AND GIVE TONS OF SHIT AWAY FOR FREE.
I'd play for her for free (but I do drink a lot).
Oy.
Hugo Burnham
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Bob,
This isn't the first time people have played with Amanda for free. Art and music are her family. Fans have brought meals backstage to her shows, her bands have shared strangers' apartments found over Twitter. Audiences love the people she brings along with her. And this is how she's always done it, ever since the Dirty Business Brigade. The only difference is that now she's made news pulling in a million bucks for the new album and tour, and people want to tell her how to use it.
I was at the New York record release concert on Tuesday night, and it was magical. Love her or hate her, AFP definitely knows how to put on a spectacle. And if her critics realized how much artists love performing with her, maybe they could forget their criticisms, and go back to playing their own music. Maybe then they'd be able to build a family like hers.
A fan
Olivia Li
__________________________________
Most of the anger being directed towards Amanda Palmer seems to be from people who are only reading the poorly written, misleading articles that state she is unwilling to pay backing musicians and sites her as having 1.2 million in Kickstarter money to spend. All this despite the fact that she is touring with a core band of paid musicians and she has accounted for where all of the Kickstarter money went. She pays her touring and recording musicians, the people writing the articles about this omit that fact. I really don't see how she is hurting anyone here and many of the negative comments I'm reading about her start with "I've never heard of you before now but..."
Getting fan musicans to sit in as auxiliary band members is not an entirely new idea. Neil Finn did it a few years back on his "Band of Strangers Tour".
cheers,
Patrick Hayes
the Dead Volts
thedeadvolts.com
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That kickstarter campaign was made possible by her fans. She's indebted to them and not the musicians bitching about getting paid (or not). I'm not a Palmer fan but definitely appreciate her alternate methods for taking care of her fans, her band and herself. I wonder if people would complain about this had she not raised a million bucks for her album which, again, she only owes her fans for.
Ask Scot Halpin if volunteering for a live gig is abysmal. I'm pretty sure he regrets nothing about volunteering to sit in with The Who for the fun of it.
- Dominic Del Bene
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She could practically charge for the experience:
***Amanda Palmer Performance EXPERIENCE***
Come be a part of a big stage production with Amanda Palmer.
You get:
- An inside peek at Amanda's touring production.
- An afternoon rehearsal with instruction from Amanda and her band.
- A memorable once in a lifetime opportunity to perform 2-3 songs with Amanda and her band in front of a HUGE audience!
- Tickets to the show plus free beer and hugs!
Cost: $150 a person
Matt Butler
__________________________________
When Amanda said she couldn't afford musicians, the first thing I thought of is this:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
If you haven't seen it, it's her breakdown of where the million dollars was going, prior to successful funding.
I don't think of her as now part of the financial elite; rather, I think of her as someone who is now working at a large scale with little left over after self-funding the empire. As a musician, the individuals I see getting upset over this complain about Amanda in terms of her "entitlement" or "privilege," but honestly? I think the musicians who are getting angry over the idea of payment are the ones who are feeling entitled.
Amanda Palmer isn't forcing anyone to play for free-- it's a self-selecting group of musicians who are responding to her call to play. You want to play for free/fun/exposure? Then email her. You want to get paid for a high exposure gig? Then go elsewhere, if you can.
Olga Nunes
PS: Erica Mulkey, who performs as Unwoman, makes many of the same arguments I did but in SFWeekly, AND she chose to perform with Amanda Palmer for free: http://bit.ly/Pxuvcu
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Hi Bob,
I saw Amanda Palmer on what I think was opening night of her current tour at Bard College. First thing I thought is, how the hell can she afford to bring 13 musicians on the road with her. Then I realized they were students at the school. It's genius, she gets to borrow their talent, they get a chance they otherwise would not have. While its cool that they had strings and horns, its the guys in her "touring" band that stole the show. Those guys rocked, extremely talented, and entertaining. I think a lot of what Amanda Palmer is doing is genius. Its just that her music doesn't resonate with me. If her music was half as good as her marketing the audience would be enormous. Now, I understand she has a very loyal fanbase and its great that she is able to raise that kind of money. I'ts just I have never read an article about Amanda Palmer which describes how amazing the music is, it's all how amazing her kickstarter campaign was. I don't mean to hate on Amanda Palmer either, its great what she is doing, and I realize maybe its just me that doesn't get her music. Its just a little like reading an article about how Apple scored a great deal on memory... who cares? .... Actually I do but, only after I fall in love with the product first, its then I want to know every little detail.
Pete Hanlon
__________________________________
People are criticizing her for not paying musicians who jump onstage for one show? You kiddin me? This is a small step away from demanding that Palmer pay the people who sit next to me and sing along with every word of every song at the live show. Short version: haters gonna hate. Palmer is just taking the after-show meet'n'greet and putting these folks on stage. How many other musicians are going to show up in town 12 hours early and go to a rehearsal to babysit every superfan who could get to a pawnshop and buy a student-model viola?
Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Patrick Ferguson
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You are a clueless cockhead!
Diego Voglino - professional musician
Brooklyn, NY
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Bob-
From the way the internet exploded, I expected a narcissistic and tone-deaf exposition on the delights of meeting Amanda Palmer. What I found is an invite for locals to sit-in. She's also offering free merch, which has real value if the moonlighter is a fan. I think I'll put my pitchfork away.
Best,
Alex Stern
__________________________________
She should just take it to the logical extreme and auction off the chance to play with her on eBay. Why beat around the bush? Let the market decide what it's worth.
Ian Kennedy
__________________________________
Where were the actors unions to complain when The Flaming Lips were inviting people to join them on stage in furry costumes and crazy outfits? It's all part of the show. Amanda's on the right track because she's on her own track.
Nakia
NAKIA.NET (http://nakia.net/)
__________________________________
I think the issue is at what point she crosses the border into exploitation of her fans. Let's not forget that this tour will probably sell out every night, so there is a nice nut there on top of all the money she already made in donations. fans have already "invested" by purchasing a ticket....does she really have to continually go to the well for more?
Don Bartlett
__________________________________
Yeah, I don't see why everyone is throwing shade. I know Amanda Palmer made mad paper off that Kickstarter, but I don't see why her asking people to play with her for free is a big deal. She's pretty up front from the start about the musicians not being paid, it's not like she asked people to play and THEN they find out they aren't getting paid. It's volunteer based. No one is forcing anyone to play with her. Knowing her fan base, I bet a lot of people would love to play a few songs with her, for free. I'd rather be told up front I wasn't going to be paid for something then find out after the fact.
Candice Jones
__________________________________
i think amanda palmer is loving more press. as she said on her kickstarter campaign, she was asking for her fans "to gather funds so that i have the capital to put it out with a huge fucking bang". we're now all contributing to the "bang" and we're not getting paid either.
robin danar
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No one should have to work for free, regardless of the industry. Musicians should get paid to perform just as writers should get paid to write. Doing things for "exposure" is bullshit. Harlan Ellison said it best: Pay the writer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Scott Heisel // Managing Editor
Alternative Press Magazine
__________________________________
So...Palmer raises over a million dollars and then tries to get her fellow musicians to play for free...but the real problem is that those musicians...are haters? Quite the unfounded conclusion if you ask me -- especially for someone who seems to consider himself on the liberal-ish side of the political spectrum. I agree with you, however, that "Artists should have solidarity." The problem is -- solidarity generally doesn't involve said artists exploiting each other for financial gain.
Gotta' hand it to you, Bob -- when you're wrong, you're pretty spectacular about it...
Danny Shorago
__________________________________
Therein lies the root of all problems in almost every facet of life today Bob: I deserve it because I want it and not because I worked harder than everyone else for it.
To paraphrase Tyler Durden from Fight Club: "We all grown up believing we will become movie stars and millionaires. We won't."
Funny. It was an invitation to play with a great act. Could have been a good time, could have been more. Never know if you are too busy hanging out with the chip on your shoulder. If you don't want to play on the terms provided then don't.
John C. Taxiarchis, Esq.
__________________________________
Coming from experience, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing that she's offering free positions in her touring band. Its essentially an internship. The thing is....when these musicians (who some of which will be great) start bringing things to the table that amanda loves, and eventually feels like she can't do without, she'll be in a position where she needs to pay them to keep them on for tour number two or three. And also, no one with any type of a sincere heart, can continue to keep musicians on their tour for free for more than one tour, or maybe two max. She'll eventually realize how great they are, how much they add to the show, how much they add to the spectators experience, and finally that they are worthy of some type of salary. My guess is that she knows all this already, and is merely trying to find the best musicians she can and "build" them on the road. I've taken drum techs and merch guys on the road before for slightly over free, because we both agreed on the terms. They wanted to prove themselves, and I wanted someone to prove themself to me before I paid the going rate. And now I'm great friends with them to this day.
-dino campanella (drummer/keyboardist in dredg)
__________________________________
Amanda's being innovative and she is looking for spontaneity every night and she will probably pull in a lot of people who will totally be down with doing this kind of work for free. What's lost on a lot of people is she NOT asking them to go on tour with her for 5-7 weeks. Just show up 1 night and make the experience fun and it gives every show a local flavor. I am willing to be that the people she has on her payroll are paid well and taken care of every night and day..
It's a sad but a true fact that when ever one band or musician does seem to make it there are always detractors willing to throw them under the bus. The music business is small in most towns, it would work so much better if musicians always talked positive about the bands that made it but that just isn't human nature. We saw this with the Alabama Shakes. Be careful behind every corner lurks a bitter musician....
Michael Creamer
__________________________________
Bingo, Bob... Love her or not, Amanda is as loyal to her fans as they are to her. It's not as if she's socked away her Kickstarter take in the Cayman Islands or anything. She's used it to create things her fans love. And now she's offering some of those fans a chance to join her on stage. How is that, in any way, bad?
Steve Hochman
P.S. Remember when U2 would ask someone to come up from the audience and play guitar? How much did they pay to those kids? Did we hear anyone complaining? Hey, never mind that teen who took over for Keith Moon at that famous gig way back when!
__________________________________
The Violent Femmes did this long before Ms Palmer. Their "Horns of Dilemma" was made up of friends and family and changed all the time. None of them got paid, but they had a lot if fun. No one got down on the Femmes for that.
Bettine
__________________________________
Hey Bob,
If I was a fan of Amanda Palmer, I'd be absolutely thrilled to get a chance to play on stage with her. All the complainers just need to do is this:
If (enter your musical idol here) offered you an opportunity to play with them for one night, would you do it or free?
Of course you would. If you don't, you're a mercenary not an artist.
Also, why should musicians be so special that they never have to work for free? I would think that almost every person has worked for free in some form: volunteering, unpaid overtime, internships etc etc.
When did musicians become so entitled and boring? I'm embarrassed to be one by some of these reactions.
Keep preaching brother,
Joel Beeson
__________________________________
Amanda Palmer was probably once just an artist. Then she worked very hard and managed to make herself a brand.
Amanda Palmer has now made over a million dollars, so like it or not she's basically a corporation in my mind.
I can only assume Dresden Dolls had tons of breaks, helping hands and freebies as they were struggling and up and coming. Now that she has had so much success, Ms. Palmer would do well to give back to the artistic community and provide a hand to other struggling musicians, by helping at least a few of them make a car payment or put a little food on the table.
Instead of closing the door behind her.
Bud Melvin
__________________________________
"Volunteers wanted" - well I don't know, but doesn't that imply 'volunteering' i.e. gratis?
Shapeshifter
__________________________________
I actually think what Amanda did is brilliant and very 'in'clusive. What semipro musician, who practices his butt off wouldn't love the chance to go hang with these guys, have a great time, and be 'one' of the band for a few hours. I agree getting paid is great, but payment isn't always about money. Amanda's offer isn't attractive for musicians living in Nashville, LA, or NYC, Austin & other major music centers where there's many opportunities to play as a session musician or live venue, because that's your day job.... but I don't think that's who she's targeting. I think she wants the guys / gals who are reasonably 'good' at their instrument who also love to play with others and all they want is an opportunity to be on stage & be part of the whole...... that's magical... better than sex kind of stuff..... I wonder why other artists are pissed.... it seems like kind of a cool thing. She was forthright, upfront and honest about what she expected and what the respondents could expect from the gig.... no one was told one thing and then a bait and switch. The benefit might be that someone who is truly gifted and the right fit gets connected in a way that would have not happened without this opportunity! Another benefit is, everyone will have a great time, because it will be somewhat organic..... What could be better than that!
Go Amanda, I love the way you think!
Robyn Taylor-Drake
Trio Productions, Inc / Songscape Music, LLC
www.trioproductions.com
__________________________________
I was in a band that opened for Bjork on her VOLTA tour for 4 dates on the east coast and canada.
The last date was at Madison Square Garden. We played to about 1,500 ppl as first support, which in the Garden just feels pathetic, though I was happy just to do it (and barely make cab fare home in the process, the band made 500$ total for the slot).
What happened after that was pretty surreal.
Damien her musical director saw me and my bandmate watching the show from the side of the stage, and on their way out for their encore invited us to play the Reactable synth (that crazy $200k table looking thing with the shapes) with them for the last song.
Being on stage about 19,000 screaming fans in the garden, whether it was my band or not, was easily one of the highlights of my life and something I would pay to do again if I had the option.
I was blessed with the opportunity and experience, and while this isn't Bjork at MSG, anyone who feels the need to get paid (or offended by Amanda's gesture/request) for something like this is severely missing the fucking point.
Gaetano Licata
__________________________________
Wow if she needed an electric guitarist, I'd be there in a heartbeat! Hell, if she's bringing beer then I'll even cook her dinner.
I've seen her live cause she gave me free tickets via Twitter, but that's not the only reason I'd do it for free. It goes back to the day in 2004 when my band played the small stage at a club in Toronto and Dresden Dolls had the large stage. She was sound checking playing War Pigs on piano. Tell me, who would pass up playing with a cool chick like that!
Cristina Bishop
__________________________________
I work with synths and drum machines daily, and I *still* think she should be paying. This isn't about jealousy or neo-Luddite-ism, this is about compensating people for their time.
Would you attempt to hire a cabinet maker, or other skilled crafts person, in exchange for "beer and good times"?
No you goddamned would not.
Guitar amps cost money.
Strings cost money
Gas and lodging cost money.
You're out to lunch on this one, Bob.
Ian Campbell
__________________________________
Dear Bob:
Amanda Palmer is not doing anything new. Check Berry was famous for flying into gigs with house bands at the ready to back him up, and he paid them next to nothing, if at all. The supporting bands just wanted to play with a legend. (See Wikepedia below).
My guess is that in the future, with rising costs of touring, many, many acts will be recruiting local talent for the very same reason. For Amanda, she has her own reasons, but hell, I'd back her up for free just for the enjoyment of being on stage with a good front person with good music and a strong following. It's a win-win for lesser known artists.
tribeca57
__________________________________
As with your diatribe regarding parenting and children nowadays, you've hit another blind spot, commenting on something you know nothing about, and should have the common sense to refrain weighing in on. Easy to make blanket statements about issues that don't affect one personally, isn't it?
There are precious few paying gigs as it is in this new music biz economy. Her claim that she can't afford to pay her players is laughable. This entire thing is based on greed and arrogance, not progressive marketing ideology or egalitarian "new school" thinking.
For God's sake, figure out who YOUR audience is, and please get your head out of your ass.
Rick Elias
Artist Track Instructor
The Contemporary Music Center
__________________________________
Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
Derek See
__________________________________
Hi Bob,
As always, you nailed it.
Amanda Palmer couldn't have make much of a PR mistake. Her actions provoked you to write about it and tell it like it is. Hard for a musician to get better, more targeted PR than that.
Britt Benston
__________________________________
Bob, I love the new technology, and was in awe of Ms. Palmer's kickstarter campaign. 1.2 million dollars. I touted her to friends as someone who seems to have gotten it right. It's a bit simplistic to lump everyone who may have an issue with her using free musicians into the "CD's forever drum machine hating progress denying reactionaries" club. I have a problem with this one narrow issue. In the article she said it would cost $35,000 to carry the extra musicians. It just seemed to me that when her project funding ballooned to1192% of her requested amount, there might have been a point where the thought "holy shit, I can bring the full complement out on this tour" might have happened. The world changes, I accept this. The thing people forget is, when change happens, some of the fighting isn't just about trying to go back to the way things were, it's how the new structure gets divvied up. Sheet music publishers in early phonograph days fought for mechanicals, etc. Sitting in with a big name for free to raise one's profile (or even just for the kicks) is a time honored tradition, but it's not cool when big names take advantage of that. It's also a dumb move publicity wise.
John Mulkerin
__________________________________
Hey Bob, respectfully, I think you're wrong on this one.
I am not a fan of this woman's music - that's not the point. I was glad she was able to raise the money and all that, it was clever how she was able to pass off as independent when her career was made by the majors. Her fans deserve the real kudos.
But the issue here is that she did all of this **at the cost of her fans** and just because she got all her expenses paid by other people she now thinks she doesn't have to pay people to play. She continues to pass her expenses on to others. It seems that the money got to her head. What's next? Come clean my house for free! It's a great priviledge for you to be in personal space!
Basically she is acting like the big corporations - passing on the expenses to the customer and, because she generates business, she feels like the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to her. WRONG.
I think now the people who supported her will think twice. Basically she comes off as a very clever CEO. She's just another business person trying to pass off as "edgy" and "grassroots". I say her credibility will take a nosedive.
P.B.
__________________________________
No hate here, as I do pro bono work in a few different spheres quite often.
I encourage anyone who feels they would enjoy the experience to play with Ms. Palmer.
It's just a question of nerve, really. I don't think I could ask my fan base who recently supplied me with 1.2 Million to volunteer their time to rehearse and play with me for free at events where I am making money, and use this as an ongoing business model.
But I must hand it to her: it is impressive that he has such devoted followers, who not only do her bidding, but are vehemently defending her in this situation.
My $0.02,
Jason Steidman
http://lightsweetcrude.ca
__________________________________
There's no hate, it's just wrong. How can someone take your missives seriously Bob about the "middle class" and "fair pay" when you take a neutral position on Amanda Palmer's greed? It seems hypocritical to me.
Ms. Palmer "claims" she can't afford other musicians! And that it's a "privilege" to play for her. What a crock! If she just said that she
wanted free players and wasn't paying them, fine, but don't say you can't afford it after you banked $1.2M on Kickstarter alone, not even including the money made off of whatever else you auctioned off from you bedroom the day before.
Aren't there labor laws anyway? Maybe a petition should be started and then sent to the IRS.
Richard Young
__________________________________
I think fear might be behind some of this hatred you describe and it's the fear that once the bar is lowered in this fashion it might be difficult to raise it again. Of course this doesn't involve the really good players but it certainly does any one less. And to be honest she isn't asking for really good players - I forgot how she described what she needs - so once again the weeding out of greatness occurs but so does the ability of the less than great to earn money.
I also think the hatred might also be directed toward the musicians who line up to do this. This all could have been avoided if she had just offered them a bit of money. Maybe she could have sold some merch on their behalf. Maybe she could have passed around a hat at the show. I meant, that's kind of what she's doing now only she's trying to fill the hat with string and horn players. Just something other than beer and hugs. Geez.
I have to admit this also reminds me of the days when I used to write music for TV commercials. Used to be that we were paid for all the work be put into making demos. Not a lot but enough to keep us going for the time we were spending. Seemingly all of a sudden composers were not only being asked to compose and produce demos for free but were being asked to do more than one or two. Some companies would hire outside composers - I shouldn't say "hire" because they didn't pay them - and submit MANY demos for free. Yes, this sort of reminds me of this. You might feel differently about this and I might even agree with some of your opposition but to me it is, among other things, just one more example of musicians being in a losing position. Once again this does not effect the great players. Maybe this will inspire more to become great. Yeah, right.
Love your newsletter - I've turned many on to you.
Best,
Stan Harrison
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Artists do have solidarity, which is why us artists are disgusted by the idea that a person who clearly has the means to pay musicians should ask for a "favor" under the guise that she is providing access to some exclusive club.
What is it about Amanda that you think makes her the arbiter of something new and groundbreaking while labeling the artists who cry foul as haters who probably have dial up internet and think that mp3s are the end of music business ?
That is far too simple a conclusion.
In the interest of full disclosure, I too did a campaign to fund a record (through Pledgemus). I applaud and support the concept of allowing fans more direct access. I think fans appreciate the window into the process of what it takes to make a record. Would I love to have raised 1.2 Million dollars? Absolutely. I would have love to raised even a tenth of that, but to characterize my disgust with her saying she can't afford to pay musicians as jealousy speaks volumes to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. I love drum machines and computer generated music and sampling and really fast internet. I'm sure I have a bunch of music on my computer that i didn't pay for. Hell, I even have a soft spot for Auto Tune. Even though I play guitar, if someone invented something that could convincingly replace the guitar, I'd buy one or possibly even two, but I know enough to know that what she's asking for is bullshit. I'm not a luddite. Alot of musicians were thrilled to know that it was possible for "one of us" to raise that kind of money. But for her to then turn around and say that she can't afford to pay is a clear indicator that she is NOT one of us. She's one of them. For you or her to say otherwise is to discount and marginalize every musician who has had to pile into a 15 passenger van to drive to some shitty town to play for 5 people in an effort to put in their "10,000 hours" all the while hoping they don't break a string or a snare head or run out of batteries or crack a cymbal because they need the gas money to get back to the town they call home.
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with an artist asking for people to play for free. I write great songs and I have a crew of first rate musicians who won't even LET me pay them for gigs because they believe in the music. The difference is that they do it for free because they know I don't have a million dollars. If I had even half of that, I wouldn't disrespect them by asking them to play for beer and hugs.
I'm sure that there are plenty of musicians that would love to play with her for free. I can guarantee you that not many of these people make music for a living. I know that makes me sound like an elitist dick, but it's true.
david ryan harris
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Sorry, Bob, but this isn't about envy or jealousy or anything other than a simple code that creative people live by.
The same code that has talented web designers fuming when clients demand spec work. Or when a couple planning a wedding doesn't understand how much WORK goes into photography. Work that needs to be paid for.
Yeah, they could all "suck it up" and "work harder" and maybe one day they'll earn the respect of "not getting asked to do stuff for free all the time".
But you know that's not true. Are you telling me no one in your life has ever bugged you for free legal or career advice? Made you feel obligated to oblige? Even if you say no, how does that make you feel?
Amanda Palmer didn't just have a successful Kickstarter. She blew the whole model out of the water. She made a million fucking dollars. I had a ton of respect for her until this happened.
She complains there's no money left over from recording and marketing to pay a paltry $35,000 to all the musicians she wants to use? She's legitimately claiming to be BROKE?
She is specifically asking for skilled musicians. For people that have put in the time to be good at what they do.
She is asking for pre-existing string quartets. For people that have spent EVEN MORE time above and beyond individual practice to be good, as a group, at what they do.
AND, let's not forget: she is asking for these services so that she can MAKE MORE MONEY. It's that simple.
We're too fucking savvy (thanks in part to people like you) to let this slide. This was not an accidental mistake that happened because Amanda Palmer is too busy blazing new ground to worry about every silly little detail. This was a calculated move that she has defended in the press.
But even if you argue "her fans want to be there, they're happy to play for free..."
Just because skilled musicians might be willing to play for free (because someone is using their status as a celebrity to influence them), it does not make it acceptable to take advantage of that willingness.
Brandon de la Cruz
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Bob,
Why do we have to be lumped in with the Luddites for believing that someone who can afford to pay her musicians should do so? It's like saying the owner of a tiny internet start-up is against innovation because he decided to take care of his employees... and then called out a larger and older corporation with, say, $1.2 million more cash on hand, for denying benefits.
I think generally people have been calling her out on it without dragging her person or her music into it. Artist 'solidarity' means not taking other folks' hard work or talent for granted, and it also means no sense of entitlement-- which you opine on frequently. In the age of Kickstarter, we all need to work a little on our sense of entitlement. I don't think of myself as either a charity case, or some special 'privilege' to play with-- and so I pay my backing band!
Harris
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You are so wrong on this one.
I don't have $1,000,000 and I pay my guys every night. Not paying is fucking bullshit and the same kind of crap musicians have to put up with everyday from idiots. She's not asking people to just come hang, she's asking for pro musicians "you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT!" and she wants you to make a rehearsal "you’d need to show up for a quickie rehearsal."
FUCK HER!
Dave Lang
P.S. A more reasoned response. If the discussion is framed around the concept of her asking her fans to participate in her shows by performing then that's great. Good on her. Not sure I'd want to pay to see it but so it goes. I'm sure there will be people who'll be happy to get up there and play along just to be involved. And their friends will probably buy tickets too - just like in the local bar when they have band warz. Everyone gets to play rock star for the evening.
It's when the discussion is around the concept of using musical interns to avoid paying working musicians that it pisses me off. She's not some struggling musician who can't afford to pay. She can afford it and she's choosing not to.
What motivates her more? I don't know. Who cares.
__________________________________
Amanda Palmer fucked up here. She was not counting on that certain set of her fans. Perhaps she was forgetting where part of her appeal is.
What she does musically - that sort of artful cabaret chamber pop - attracts those fans that are professional musician-types: people who got pushed from a young age with their instrument, studied at conservatories and music schools racking up huge loans for to make what is relative peanuts playing in orchestras.
What they do get is to be called a "professional". And these people take that credential seriously. They worked hard and they want to be paid. They are dead serious about playing, but they aren't hungry for it in the same way most garage denizen rock and roll bands are.
I'm not knocking those professional musicians. Not at all. They just have a very different mentality than a lot of other people who play, especially rock.
Having once played in a shitty Replacements wannabe band (the furthest thing from "professional") and booking thousands of shows, I know the opportunity to share a stage with an artist you love trumps just about anything you can get paid. The first thing I think when we have a show where we can stick a local/regional act on is, "Who I know that would be most excited to get this gig?"
Now there's almost always a little money even for local support, but it's rarely significant. It usually ain't union scale! It is really about the joy of getting to do it and be part of a show with an artist that matters to you. I think that's what Amanda was going for but she was forgetting about the professionals in her fan base.
Around six or seven years ago, we did a Dresden Dolls date when we first opened Town Ballroom and Amanda and Brian put the word out (already using the web and social media of the time) to get performers to do a variety of carnival-themed acts to join them on stage. None of these performer fans were paid but they undoubtedly had an amazing time. And none of the local professional jugglers and clowns complained, either.
--
Donny Kutzbach
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Funtime Presents
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wow, so now that record companies arent around to do it, artists will take care of exploiting other artists...
sure she seems like a nice enough person, and if it was an, "all welcome - come make noise on a big stage event" - I wouldnt say anything...
but expecting and requesting talent and asking for references... and not paying scale... looks like she's the one hating other artists...
but she's a broke musician, so it's ok? suppose she donated the extraneous kickstarter funds to some worthwhile charity to feed people, or buy kids shoes and school supplies
dan
if you havent printed my letters because you dont know who the fuck I am... well, still just a studio owner: soundsculptor.net ... if its because they arent any good...
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Bullshit, Bob.
She's not asking for hobbyists. She's asking for string players and saxophonists, a large chunk of whom probably went or are going to school to hone their craft. And if anyone's out there saying she should dole out union scale, I'd roll my eyes at that. It's two tunes and a rehearsal. But $50 is too much to give to someone who just made your show better and closer to the picture of it you had in your head? For me, it's the principle of the thing. If you're getting paid, pay those who are helping to make it happen.
You can say that she's trying to build a club, and clearly she has. But she's likely reaching beyond that club for this, and it's doubtful that she'll be doling out referrals to the folks that do sign up for this. And before we talk about how I'd jam with Bob Weir and Phil Lesh or the guys in Zeppelin for free, let's remember the difference - if I play with Phil and Bobby and whether anyone likes me or not, my name will immediately be on thousands of twitter feeds, Facebook pages and the like. With Amanda Palmer, someone might catch you for a split second on a cell phone video that they upload to YouTube. She should be making the pot a lot sweeter than she is at the moment.
Paul Abella
__________________________________
Here's a crazy idea, why not pay the musicians scale for the night? What would that end up to cost? Seven musicians at scale, we're talking what...one thousand dollars maybe? I can understand using musicians from each town, Chuck Berry did that forever. But the move to not pay said musicians is a predatory douchebag move no matter how you or she try to spin it.
Oh, and she should shave her armpits!
Matt Siegel
7 Years Today
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This is brilliant and most regional players should kiss her feet to have an opportunity like this
Scott Brill-Lehn
__________________________________
I remember a few years back going to see Green Day, when they were touring American Idiot. They had this wonderful gag where they invited up three people from the audience who 'had some skill' to play their instruments for a song. I think the show I saw at the Meadowlands was in front of about 70,000+ people, but I imagine they did it on every date of the tour. I don't remember hearing a single negative word about it, just heaps of praise, how cool they were for letting fans participate. As they say, it's not always the idea that counts, but rather the execution.
Taylor Brigode
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" You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat."
Bullshit. I know plenty of people who believe similar things about the future of music and commerce that share your view and they disagree with what Palmer is doing.
"And these players are the same ones decrying drum machines and synthesizers and every modern innovation that cost a single musician a job. If we had these people rule, we'd truly live in an "Atlas Shrugged" world. One where there's no innovation and the masses are a step behind."
Bullshit again. Well, partly. Plenty of professionals who use and love drum machines, synths and other innovative technologies are decrying Palmer's bullshit move.
Most of the folks that I know, who applaud Palmer's DIY spirit were surprised and disappointed she'd ask this of hard working professionals.
The size of the show is also irrelevant. I can play as a sideman and get at LEAST $100 a gig.
And it cost her a cool million for her new record? Aren't you the one always going on and on about how it's cheaper than EVER to record your own material? Hell, she could've built an unbelievable home studio for that money...
She can pay the rest of the band, but not horn or string players? Kind of insulting to horn and string players....
Hell, why pay any of the band members? Go big or go home, right? I guess string and horn players don't have rent to pay either.
I'm sure you've read Steve Albini's rant on this, but just in case:
http://stereogum.com/1151562/steve-albini-amanda-palmer-is-an-idiot/franchises/wheres-the-beef/
Again, I applaud Palmer for trying to find creative ways (which she's done well) to further her career, but this is kind of insulting, when you consider her fund raising capability.
Bill Seipel
__________________________________
I'm a musician in Nashville, but would I play for free for the chance to share a stage with one of my favorite artists? In a heartbeat. I can play just about every Stones tune ever made, but the odds of Mick pulling me up to play "Tumbling Dice" is pretty slim. But would any instrument-wielding Stones fan do it for free, or hell, even pay for the opportunity? Sure.
Given that a ticket to a show in most of her venues I'm guessing would be $30-50 with fees, free admission and the chance to play with one of your favorite musicians (and a few free $10 beers, I'm hoping, at least), as a fan, it's a pretty good deal. She'd rather have amateurs who love her music than professionals just showing up and doing a job, and I don't blame her. As a musician, I could get on my soapbox about how everyone who plays on a stage, anywhere, should be getting paid, but I'd be a hypocrite since I'd jump onstage with any of my favorite artists in a heartbeat if I had the opportunity. Sure, it's a cost-cutting measure, but at the same time I think it's another brilliant way to further close the gap between artist and fan.
Moreover, from her description, it's for two or three songs. Not only a) is that ridiculous to hire musicians in every town to play for 10 minutes out of your set, but b) having heard her new record, I'm sure the sound that will be created will be something really unique for both the musicians and the audience. I really think the discussion on her site has been blown way out of proportion, and anyone arguing against what she's doing should think about what they'd do if they had the chance to spend 10 minutes onstage with their favorite band. Also, I'm wondering what these people's opinions are about Bono pulling up fans to play with U2, as he's done many times over the years (including at last year's Nashville show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNF13YQPmQ).
Also, I wonder if some of the angry posts (which seem to be from people who aren't familiar with Amanda besides articles they read about her Kickstarter) are people just wishing they'd thought of this first, or had the kind of fanbase capable of pulling this off at every show.
-Steve Cunningham
Nashville, TN
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Bob,
I think the community's primary issue with Amanda Palmer's request is not so much that she's asking musicians to play for free on what will undoubtedly be a profitable tour, but the condescension with which she does so. Offering payment in "beer and hugs" is comparable to bribing your bar buddies into helping you move -- not a glamorous duty or return. The problem here is with the language involved (and entitlement implied) in the request. Had it been phrased as more of a thinly-veiled contest, i.e. "Audition to play a show with us in your town!" the negative PR would likely be nil.
The uproar over this plea for free supporting musicians is, obviously, further compounded by the vast amounts her fans have already donated. "What happened to that money?" is what they're all asking. From the perspective of a "professional-ish" musician, we've done albums on obscenely miniscule budgets, we've toured in Toyota Camrys and paid rent late to press records in time for the release show. What has Ms. Palmer done with that $1.2 million that was handed to her? There is no transparency in regard to what happened with those donations, and thus it is questionable why a measly $100 or so for a quick sit-in gig couldn't be offered. I have no qualms with Kickstarter campaigns, nor with them accepting overruns of the initial goal, but that money should be used for the furthering of the project funded (which would include any tour supporting such a project). The question posed is why she deems it acceptable to stiff *any* musician playing with her, especially when it is a fan who has (most likely) already financially supported Palmer and her career, whether through Kickstarter or otherwise.
Admittedly, I am not a fan of Palmer's music. Were this an opportunity to sit in with Jack White, I would probably be singing a different song. I would challenge any musician, professional-ish or otherwise, to turn up their nose at an offer to play with one of their favorite artists. These opportunities arise often with no compensation (KISS's opening band, OurStage/Lilith Fair and Guitar Center/John Mayer's "King of the Blues" competitions from recent years come to mind). As I said, it's all in the language; the overwhelming entitlement with which the request is made is what makes it so disconcerting to hear this from an independent artist who (one would assume) should want to give back to the independent music community that has nurtured her and her endeavors so, especially after financing her album-and-then-some via the pockets of the very people she is approaching.
Then again, all press is good press in this industry, right? Perhaps this backlash was part of her plan all along. Either way, it will serve to do nothing more than increase her exposure, which is what her independent career has thrived on thus far. Touché, Ms. Palmer.
Ellie Maybe
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Amanda Palmer should come out and say what she actually does feel is worth her dipping into her own precious pocket to spend her own money on. Because clearly it's not any of the following:
Paying for her record
Paying for her tour
Paying for her PR/Marketing
Paying for her band
At some point the artist has to assume the financial risk all on his or her own. If she fails, she's only lost other people's money. Isn't risk inherent to art?
Amanda's clearly got the money she needs now. But still asking for fans to foot the bill? What's that saying, "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"?
Amanda Palmer is walking dangerously close to hog territory.
Jeremy Silver
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"Kickstarter Millionaire"? Please. I think with a title like that, and a lot of arguments being made, everyone needs to read this first:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
She specified where all the money is going. You get what you pay for. Perhaps she should have put some of that aside for her musicians to avoid the backlash? But that's here nor there. The tour, just like the Kickstarter call to action, is offering fans the opportunity to engage in her art. No one's being forced to contribute, or play in her shows. Some of the arguments made in her blog are by people insulted by Palmer's move, complaining they've been low-balled as professional musicians in wedding band gigs and the like. Please. This is an artist giving fans the chance to be a direct part of her act. I don't listen to her music, but regardless that sounds cool as hell for a fan.
Pissed you're not getting paid? Don't take the gig. Someone else will jump on that chance (and even pay to do it!). Hell, that's what my music industry internships were all about. There were plenty of times I was pissed for spending money to travel, and losing money not working at my part-time job, all while label execs were getting my free labor. But damn did I get to be a part of some cool stuff. And as a recent college grad, I'm proud to say I'm very much on my way to getting a paid industry job now. Take the opportunity for a night, enjoy it, then go back to your part time jobs and wedding gigs.
Deb Keller
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Reading the comments on AFP's post. Like reading comments on Free Republic. Hypocrisy, stupidity, irrational rage, misinformation, threats both dire and empty. Hatred amped up to the nth degree. Ah, Americans on the Internet. They love to huff and puff and blow, hoping someone's house falls down. No fan of AFP but I can only -- with this much ignorant hatred aimed her -- wish her great success.
Larry Prater
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