Mailbag

From: Chip Monck
Re: Cleanup Work

Alice.

Forget it..

You have the talent, to compose, to write, and to perform or you do not..
No one can teach you that, certainly not a school or college, it comes from the heart.
And years of work on a skill, that you support, as best you can

It's no fun..Don't throw money at it, as it is a too easy out.
Nurture and support, and there are times to say nothing.

Atta a Girl..

Chipper

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

Dear Bob,

I can understand Alice's angst, about her son. My unsolicited opinion, is that whilst the benefits of the actual music degree are debatable, time spent at college studying music, can be highly beneficial. It may not immediately be apparent, but may become so. As you know, you have time at college, in a more or less friendly environment, to scheme and plot your plan of attack. Meanwhile, you're learning valuable skills. I finished school at the end of 1972, and decided to take a year off and become a rock star. I sang in a few bands, and formed my own. We went nowhere. I had been accepted into university, so to please my parents, and lick my wounds at my unsuccessful attempts at rock stardom, I enrolled in an arts degree, including some music subjects. Whilst at university, I wrote a lot of songs, did many busking and solo gigs, saw as many shows as possible, and plotted and schemed. At university, I met important collaborators, who formed part of Men At Work. It still took a further four years to cut through and make a mark with my band, but those years at university were crucial to what happened after. I believe that talent and tenacity are key ingredients for lasting success, but what's the rush, stay at school for a while, enjoy yourself. As you pointed out, life is long.

All the best,

Colin Hay

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

For Alice Tamkin (and you too if you want Bob),

My name is Ed Toth. I play the drums for the Doobie Brothers. I went to the University of Miami graduating with a Bachelor of Music in 1994. Does this matter? Ultimately I think it does. The ultimate question to your son is....what does he want to do? For me it was always about playing music for a living. PERIOD!!!! Nothing less would be tolerated.

I started young and began putting in my 10,000 hours. Upon graduating high school I realized there was no way I was going to college because my family couldn't afford it. So I stuck around southeastern Connecticut (where I was born and raised) and worked various jobs (record store, hospital janitor, marine supply warehouse) so I could play at night in a cover band. We played a lot. It became part of my 10,000 hours. In 1990 with really no money saved, I applied to a few schools to see if I could get in. I got in the one I wanted to get into. The University Of Miami. Realizing I could apply for financial aid as an independent, (I was 20 years old at this point) I locked down enough to pay for one semester. I landed in Miami on my 21st birthday with a suitcase full of clothes, a suitcase full of "stuff", and only 100 bucks in my pocket. I didn't even bring drums (!) and I was going to music school! The pattern of finding loans and grants (and waiting tables) continued one semester at a time, until I managed (with a hefty loan bill) to graduate in 94.

In 1996, I had moved to Boston and was working for Borders Books and Music, playing music here and there but ultimately being frustrated. I ended up at a gig by small time independent band called Vertical Horizon and while I was there I ran into a cat named Jason Sutter who I knew from my Miami days. He told me that VH was looking for a drummer. I auditioned and got the gig. We went on to tour the country, sign to a major, record a multi platinum album called Everything You Want, and had a #1 hit with the title track. We did award shows, countless interviews, endless touring, made videos and even squeezed out a really good follow up before being dumped by our incredibly confused label. Did I enjoy it? Hell yeah. But ultimately none of that stuff mattered. I was playing music for a living.

During that period I was often asked "how did you know you'd made it?" My answer was always the same. The day I quit my retail job to make music full time (and for less money mind you) was the day that I made it. Everything I listed above after "getting the gig" was just bonus stuff for me. Ultimately, I wasn't happy in VH and I left. Shortly after making this decision I was approached by Doobie drummer Mike Hossack, who was a Vertical Horizon fan, to audition for the drum chair vacated by the premature death of his drumming partner Keith Knudsen. I have been doing that gig for 8 years now. When I'm not doing that, I play around Nashville, I play jazz with my Dad and have a fun band with a friend named Tim Bradshaw (from David Gray's band) called Cooper (www.gotcooper.com) No more award shows, no more radio station visits, no more videos. And I couldn't be happier.

All of the above.....is as a result of running into an old college buddy at a gig. Would it have happened for me otherwise? I'd like to think so. But this is the way it did happen. Does the degree matter? It's different for everyone. For me it does. I use the skills I learned studying on a daily basis. More importantly, the relationships I have with people from that time helped get me where I am. I've often wondered what would have happened if I stuck to my original plan which was to graduate high school and move to L.A. But why waste time wondering what if? I live in a modest house, drive a Honda Civic, my kids go to public schools, and I can go places without anyone having a clue who I am or what I do. And that is all fine with me because....I do what I've wanted to do since I was 4 years old. I play music.

Sincerely,
ET

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

At least he's heading to SUNY Purchase....where they have a truly great Modern Dance program - SO much better than Bennington (where it all began). My incredibly talented Missus (not just a great publicist) got her BFA in Modern Dance there.

Tell him to get a dancer for a girlfriend, and then he can live off her income.

Oh, wait.....

Hugo Burnham

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

Bob,

Re. Alice Tamkin's 18 year old son. I sincerely hope that his goal is NOT as stated: "to be a rock star". That is as shallow goal as I can think of. To learn skills...musical chops, song writing, musical arranging recording studio craft, and the all important personal skills that make future peers want to work with you...these are valid reasons for schooling. The goal should be to become a great musician, a great communicator. And you should have something to say...literally with words as well as in that much more subtle way with the notes you play. If you can really move people, the star shit will take care of itself.

None of the "rock stars" I've built instruments for over the years got into it to be rock stars. They did it for a love of the music and a love for the audiences that they bond with when playing. Stardom, for them, is a side effect of excellence in art and craft. It's not that they don't enjoy some of what comes with stardom...money, companionship, etc., but when they get home off the road, they still pick up their guitars or sit at the piano for the basic joy of the music itself.

Rick Turner

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

Bachelor of Music degrees can be a good way to get a general musical education, but in themselves they are almost totally useless. I went all the way to Ph.D (studying the history of rock music mostly, which is simultaneously hilarious, awesome and sad) and I make a living today mostly as a freelance guitarist/singer around Toronto. Nobody cares that I went to school. But I did learn how to think through musical problems, and I can read music decently the odd time that it is demanded. Hey, I'll be able to play Beck's next album!

Colleges are in the business of making money like everyone else, and they will take as many students as they can. Almost all of those students do not have a realistic chance of making a living in music, even in the formerly safe province of music teaching, a job increasingly akin to stagecoach driving. The supply simply outstrips the demand.

Mike Daley

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

Hi Bob, I manage to keep afloat playing gigs, producing, writing songs and music for film/tv and occasiional workshops and teaching. I tell my young TAFE (read 'college') students that I teach very early in the piece that music is a tough, tough, tough, tough game and if they want to be in it they have to wake up every morning and say to themselves "I'm right, they're wrong.... and fuck them".

I also tell them that ultimately they will either (a) die deluded or (b) eventually realise that there is a better life doing something else and retire hurt or in the rarest of circumstances (c) they'll actually get a seat at the table with all the other success stories. All the musos I deal with in this strange busines are still there 'cause they love music, pure and simple. Tooraloo...

Brendan Gallagher
www.brendangallagher.com.au

____________________________________________

Re: Cleanup Work

You have to be careful about what you say. You obviously know litte or nothing about formal music education. Dont underesimate the power you possess.

Please forward this note to the mother who sent you the worried note:??

To the worried mother:

Ignore the iresponsible advice this guy just fed you. ??SUNY PURCHASE is a fine performing arts school; the best undergraduate program for music in the SUNY system. Getting a higher degree at the best possible professional school wil give him skills that will further whatever goals he winds up having. It will change his life in ways that otherwise would not be available to him.

I went to CalArts (BFA) and SUNY STONYBROOK (MA); both for music composition. I was an award winning composer for twenty years until I decided to teach. I currently am a public school music teacher (NYC). I am an excellent teacher, and never went into music education degree program. You can become a music teacher without it. DONT WORRY. He may wind up taking some Education classes to become certified (I beleieve its 12 credits or so in NYS). THERE ARE NO MUSIC ED REQUIREMENTS TO BECOME CERTIFIED. THANK GOD.... What a waste! ??If your son is passionate enough, his enthusiasm will be his best friend. TRUST ME. His life may not be an easy path, granted, but its the life of a musician. And there is nothing more fullfilling than dedicating one's life to music.

Feel feel to contact me for advice

Regards,

Ivan Salinas

ps- I am a parent as well. One just finished her college education, and another who is about to start.

____________________________________________

Subject: the mother w/ the aspiring music student

Bob,

I'd appreciate if you could forward this to Alice, the mother of the 18 year old who wants to study music at Purchase.

I have two music degrees, and I think you gave her good advice, but let me share my perspective on the whole academic music thing. I have a Bachelor's degree in jazz studies from Indiana University and a Masters in classical guitar from Manhattan School of Music. The Bachelor's degree--totally worth it. I learned a ton, and really, a music degree is as valuable as any liberal arts degree if you get it from a traditional university (like IU as opposed to a conservatory ie Juilliard/Curtis/MSM). Plenty of music graduates go on to law school, hedge funds, whatever. You're not closing any doors that an English degree wouldn't close. Goldman even used to recruit right in the lobby of the music building. Not that I gave a shit, but they were there.

My masters...while I honed my chops quite a bit in those 2 years, you don't really expand your brain at all in a conservatory setting. Nor do you gain much as an artist in terms of the life experience that will fuel songwriting and self-expression. With the exception of a few fantastic professors that I learned a lot from, I spent my time in grad school shedding--something that could have easily been done on my own without the hefty price tag. My original goal was to get a doctorate and enter academia as a music professor, but these days, that's almost as much of a crapshoot as becoming a rockstar. You're more than likely to end up teaching guitar at a community college in Kansas (not that there's anything wrong with Kansas...even those jobs are competitive). As for using that conservatory degree in practice--If you want to be a jazzer, you'll end up playing plenty of pop/rock to pay the bills. If you want to become a classical soloist, or even a member of a major orchestra, all I can say is good luck. That truly is NFL-level competitiveness.

So here I am, a rock n' roll singer/songwriter/guitar player, trying to do the best work I can and hoping people start to notice someday. A "wannabe" as you put it, struggling like everyone else. I'm damn proud of the 2 records I have out, but I make my living teaching guitar, playing as a sideman, and I sell a few records here and there. Outside of the classical and jazz worlds, most musicians I know don't have degrees from music schools, and in the end, nobody really cares where you went to school. "Can you play" and "Are you professional, reliable, and cool to be around" are the only things that matter to anyone I know.

But back to the question of whether this Alice's son should go study music or not....if he is anything like me, he's going to do what he wants to do. I had plenty of people tell me not to study music, or at least get a music education degree. But I wanted to play. So I did, and luckily my parents supported that decision. Since I was old enough to turn on the radio, there's never been anything else I wanted to do but be a musician. The thing you could do for your son would be to explain to him that rock stardom shouldn't be the goal. He should realize that "making it" can be a lot of things, but becoming the Beatles isn't one of them. Not anymore. If "making it" means doing a bunch of things to cobble together a living, and get a chance to play a lot of music, he's got a shot. If you're worried about him getting a job out there, a music degree is a hell of a lot better than no degree at all.

One last anecdotal factoid seems relevant. In the indie singer/songwriter world in NYC, there are a few handfuls of professional sidemen that play with a lot of local artists--singer/songwriters/cover bands/etc. The average amount they charge for a rehearsal and a gig is around $100, and there are a some guys that do that almost every night. Do the math, and that is a reasonable amount of money. They aren't getting rich and it ain't cheap to live in New York, but they are working and paying their bills. Some of those guys go on to get work on major tours with major label acts. Others grind it out as journeymen. For some reason, of all the music schools that feed people into the city, I meet more people from Purchase on the sideman circuit than just about anywhere.

In any case tell him to enjoy music school! You never get a chance to hang around with musicians and just play all day again without worrying about career or networking or paying the bills or all the other bullshit that comes with adulthood. Plus you never know who your friends in college will become. No better way to make those connections that might come back to your advantage 10 years down the line. My last advice would be to get a minor in english or history or philosophy or science....you gotta know about the world to have anything interesting to say with your art. Music school, for those lucky enough to afford it, is a great chance to learn who you are as an artist, get your chops together, make bonds with other young musicians, and have a good time doing it.

Jeff Litman
Singer/Songwriter/Multi-Instrumentalist

____________________________________________

My daughter is a music therapist. She works with children with cancer. She was trained at Berklee and did her internship at Mass. General, and brought music therapy back home to Idaho. I hear so many stories about how music makes its way through pain and fear and reaches into the hearts of those children, helping them to heal or just to get through the day. Yesterday she had a two year old with a week to live trying to bob her head and dance to the music she was singing.

The doctors ask for her now. They prescribe music therapy to strengthen the kids' breathing by making them sing, to heal their brains by making them move and think, to soothe their bodies and minds by making them dance and laugh, to get through a procedure without using drugs by distracting and calming them with her harp or guitar. Sometimes, because of the connection she has made with the children through music, they ask for her to just be with them - she is the only one who can comfort them.

I know that you will get that.

I always appreciate hearing what you think. Thanks for being real.

Lynda Johnson

____________________________________________

Re: Neil Diamond At The Greek

Hey Bob,

Thank you for your review of Neil Diamond's show. I thought you nailed it. He is truly a great artist.

I had the personal good fortune of working with him on both 12 Songs and Home Before Dark. Having played guitar for many prominent artists, from Adele to Beck to Johnny Cash to Tom Waits, I was still awed and amazed by his ferocious commitment to the fine art of songwriting. He was ever willing to dig deeper and explore that very personal (and universal) truth of humanity and distill it down to it's most basic and beautiful form. He would work tirelessly, until he knew the song was the best it could be. Sometimes he would still be working into the night, long after the band left the studio, and he would be there working the next day when we arrived. And man, he can still write, just check out Save Me A Saturday Night, or Evermore. There were so many great songs on those two albums. It was such a rewarding experience for us sidemen.

But nothing prepared me for Neil Diamond the performer. Neil really understands that it's about more than just his own personal ego. His commitment to his fans is just as great as his commitment to songwriting He is a true showman. The ultimate pro. When I went to see him at Madison Square Garden in 2009, I was floored. He and his band were so into it. He worked the whole room. And the audience was so appreciative and happy. It was one giant lovefest.


Music trends come and go, but good songs last forever. Neil should be a shining example for all of todays younger artists. It's all about good songs and respecting the fans. And if you give it your all as a performer, like Neil does every night, the fans will follow you forever.

-Smokey Hormel

____________________________________________

Hey Bob -

First, I want to thank you for posting my initial email. I was happy to see tweets that my story inspired a few others.

I read the "no namers" response and just want you to know I stand by my story 100%. I never mentioned the agent's name and feel this is an unjustified personal attack. My integtrity means the most to me, and Ive never 'stiffed' anyone and have honored every contract. I entered the music biz with zero connections and am now a full-time musician through hard work and investing money in my career when necessary. Proud of what I've done in 3 years, and the only way I'll be disappearing anytime soon is if the "no namer" kidnaps me :)

Sincerely,
Mikey Wax

____________________________________________

Re: Samsung & Armstrong

I've been keeping up with your thoughts since I was a young audio engineering student in Minneapolis back in 2005. My music biz teacher claimed you wrote the gospel, so of course, I tuned in. That description still holds true.

Thanks for keeping it so real. Don't ever stop.

Signed,
Geoffrey LeMond (yeah)

____________________________________________

it was allan parker on hurdy gurdy man
I was there

Peter Noone


--
Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
--
http://www.twitter.com/lefsetz
--
If you would like to subscribe to the LefsetzLetter,
http://www.lefsetz.com/lists/?p=subscribe&id=1

If you do not want to receive any more LefsetzLetters, http://lefsetz.com/lists?p=unsubscribe&uid=0eecea7b60b461717065cbde887c8e25

To change your email address http://lefsetz.com/lists?p=preferences&uid=0eecea7b60b461717065cbde887c8e25




--
Powered by PHPlist, www.phplist.com --