I worked for a couple of acts on Epic between 2005 and 2009, nearly every female Epic rep had some Charlie Walk story, from his hotel room key offers to perverted comments about their attire. I was dating a girl in 2008 and we had dinner with Charlie and an Epic artist, Charlie rubbed my companion's leg under the table at the restaurant on several occasions throughout the meal, later in the meal when my companion excused herself to go to the bathroom and then came back I got up to let her into the booth and she lightly nudged me back in so I would be sitting next to Charlie, it was only later back at our hotel room I found out what had been going on, needless to say I was enraged.....reading your email below and Tristan's letter was a vivid reminder that everything always finds it's way out.
Anyhow, with your subscribers and your influence with the mainstream press you really have an opportunity to do something powerful here, woman deserve to work on an equal playing field with men (pay, treatment, ascendency, etc.) I would love to see you focus a little more on this, Charlie Walk stories have been around for decades, reading his "statement" made laugh because he clearly doesn't get it, he still thinks he can spin himself out of the mess he created.
Good for Tristan Coopersmith, she got the hell out of this soul sucking business which is why she was willing to share her truth while everyone else, myself included, insists on anonymity. I came into this business at 18 fresh out of high school, I am still passionate about music but I've seen the ugly side....and it isn't pretty.
My true hope in all this is that we have a broader conversation that deals with the global state of work place conditions and the way people at the top treat the people who keep everything moving, leading with fear, intimidation and harassment is not leadership at all.
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Hi Bob,
Avid reader & fan, I think what you're doing here is wonderful. If you decide to print this please withhold my name.
I'm a female executive in my 30s working in the industry. I've interned & worked at labels, publishers and management companies. I've been lucky to see a lot since I was 18. I've exposed myself to a vast array of surroundings across different genres. I consider myself one of the lucky ones, I've never been a victim of harassment or abuse by a superior or colleague. I've witnessed plenty of it and know a lot of women who've left the industry because of it, but nothing awful has ever happened to me.
However, I would like to share with you the story of my most memorable job interview.
At the time I was in my late 20s. I was meeting with a very prominent manager (white, male, married & in his mid 30s) who was looking to hire a in house A&R for his roster of artists. A friend of a friend put my name forward & this guy manages some of the biggest pop acts in the business. So, I was excited. I had solid experience, great contacts & went in feeling really confident. The meeting started off fine, he asked me about my experience, laid out what they are looking for and what the job would entail. Oh, and, It's also worth mentioning that his GM (who is female) was present for this meeting. Then, this.
manager: 'WAIT, I have to ask you, are you married?'
Me: 'No.'
manager: 'do you have a boyfriend?'
Me: 'Yes, we live together.'
manager: 'Are you pregnant?'
Me: (confused, thinking i looked fat) 'Uh...No?'
manager: 'do you want to have kids???'
Me: (even more confused) 'Maybe, Someday? I'm not sure.'
manager: 'OK. Well the girl we were going hire for this job admitted that she was a few months pregnant before she started. We couldn't move forward with her b/c we really need someone who's young, really hungry and willing to put work first.'
Me: (horrified) 'Alright.'
My internal alarm bells went off and I got the FUCK out of there. I was fairly certain that admitting you didn't hire someone because they were pregnant (OR even didn't WANT to hire someone because they were pregnant) isn't legal. Legality aside- if he's asking me that kind of stuff in a job interview what kind of a nightmare is he to work for??? To top it off, his #2, A WOMAN, was present for this exchange who thought nothing of it at all. And....WHAT THE FUCK?? Women can't have kids and do a good job? Needless to say I didn't pursue it any further.
Some years have passed. I'm now married, planning a family & since this interview I have been fortunate to work for some incredible female executives. They have taught countless lessons on life, the business & how to raise a family while excelling in your career.
This unnamed manager is still really successful and our paths have crossed since. He clearly has no memory of our initial meeting.
I'll never forget it.
________________________________________
The thing that always vexed me about the harassment thing was that if you weren't touched physically that people said it was something you could 'get over.' I have been stolen from, gaslighted, threatened, underpaid, underestimated and taken for granted. I have been in earshot of an unbelievable number of disgusting statements from men about other females and have been put into embarrassing situations just to see how I reacted to them by numerous men in the business. It wears a person down. In many instances I kept my mouth shut just to keep working in the business. I am at a breaking point. If one more person mainsplains to me I am going to lose it...
in the early 80s, I was with elektra at a WEA convention and got shitfaced...and called a female friend suggesting we get to know each other better....it bothered me the next day and I apologized and it bothered me in the 00s and I apologized again...and it still bothers me.....she was and she says she still is my friend..which only makes it worse, really.....very sad..every time I get on my high horse regarding these guys just pulling themselves out and masturbating in front of women, i remember that I'm one of them.....
Louis Heidelmeier
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Given the number of readers you have from the industry, you might want to give this a push.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MKSgvTINrqBzItJk7FGJN1eLmOr4-9xUjPrtPdFhbgI/edit#gid=184767774
It allows for the anonymous posting of salary, employer, gender, etc. The more data it collects the more compelling a story it will tell no doubt....
________________________________________
You know I see all this "name withheld" shit. And I keep thinking that Ali Harnel would have a very 'prolific' remark if she read your blog! She's the one guys should fear....... then there she is ...her very direct comment, 'AMEN'....... a ball busting woman that has always stood her ground against all the fakes and towers of power. I was there, I know! And, oh yeah, don't you ever forget THE power house QUEEN of Ballbusters.......Claire Rothman!!!! Thanks Ali and hail to Claire!!!
Kelley and 'Claires' Jimmy Johnson
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Thank you for not only addressing the Charlie Walk letter, but also for sharing the many stories your readers and followers have sent you. As a woman who has worked in the music industry for quite a few years and who is currently trying her hardest to get her foot back in the door, everything that has been shared via your newsletter/mailbag is all too real!
I think it's important to not only address sexual harassment in the music industry, but also sexual discrimination, general harassment/bullying, and the rampant nepotism that is all too common in this industry. It's also important to address the fact that it's not only some of the men in the industry who are to blame for the above-mentioned issues, but also some of the female executives. So many of us never speak up for fear of retaliation (getting fired, not getting promoted, not getting hired, or being physically and/or verbally assaulted and humiliated in front of peers). Even now, I'm not including my name in this e-mail and have actually opened a new email account just to send this to you. Why? I can't afford to. Doing so what put the final nail in the coffin for my career in the music industry and I refuse to give up my dream because of a few lowlife individuals who hold far too much power.
FYI - The following events are not in chronological order:
I have worked for two of "the big three" major record labels. I worked for a female executive who although she has a child and is married to a man, would call me into her office and compliment my intelligence, work ethic, and eventually started making remarks about my looks, all while looking me up and down and then staring intently at me (Just thinking about it even now makes my skin crawl!). I NEVER responded to her. I would stand there quietly and eventually, without even realizing it, my demeanor changed overall. I hardly spoke and practically ran out the building at the end of the work day. In her office she would compliment me and in front of my peers and my other supervisors she would belittle my work and demean me. I felt completely helpless and hopeless. Did I ever tell my other supervisors about her behavior? No. Did I ever confront her or inform her that her behavior made me (a straight woman) uncomfortable? No. Did I report her to HR? No. I was afraid (I still am). I was working at a major record label and my career ambitions stopped me from reporting such behavior for fear of losing my job....my opportunity. I began seeking other positions within the record label, only to find out by accident (through mistake made by HR) that the exec had instructed them not to forward my resume to the other hiring managers/execs at the label. Yes, it is illegal to do that and yes HR actually complied with her request. She further retaliated by eventually firing me. Claiming that I didn't do my job properly. BULLSHIT. The HR rep, who accidently divulged the info, apologized to me profusely for their behavior. The rep was afraid of losing her job too! I never let it be known that it was her who had informed me of what the exec had done. I figured that if I kept quiet I would be able to find a job at another record label, and so I kept mum. Silence is the problem here.
It isn't just the men who do the bullying and harassment.
I worked for another female executive who subjected the assistants to such a high degree of verbal harassment that even other execs would warn the assts and coordinators about her. One of her co-workers quit because of her. Another refused to work with her on any project, and temps wouldn't even last us a week before deciding to leave. Instead of speaking to her about her behavior, her boss (the head of the dept.) simply warned us about her. She should have been fired multiple times already. This woman's HR file at UMG is thick with complaints and reports about her harassment of subordinates. On my last day working at Geffen, I informed HR about the extreme bullying that this exec subjected her subordinates to, myself included. I let HR know that although I would not be pressing charges or taking it any further, they needed to do something about her behavior because eventually another employee was going to sue the company because of her. HR did nothing. This executive still works there to this day! My payment for speaking up this time and informing HR about her was to be blackballed from applying for any other jobs at UMG. Sure, their executives call and are interested in hiring me. I have a lot of experience. However, once UMG's HR managers get involved in the process, the opportunity is lost. This is what happens when women in the music industry speak up! This is why we don't speak up! We're afraid of being banned, fired, or not hired.
Both of the women I have referenced in this email are still working at these labels. Now, tell me that HR isn't a part of the problem?! I once worked for three of the top music execs in latin music and overheard one them tell his staff that he didn't think I was pretty enough to work for him. I also had the head of HR tell me that I had to take the dirty towels home from their executive restrooms and wash them. I refused and quit.
Yes, I have also been sexually harassed by some of the male executives. I had a job interview with an executive at UMG who ended the interview with personal (albeit illegal to ask) questions. I responded to his questions as professionally as I could. All the while, my guard had gone up. I felt like crying. I was alone with him in his executive office and the door was closed and locked. I did my best to remain calm, but eventually lost my composure when he asked if I was married and if I had children. My response: "No, not yet." His response: "OH! Well then do you think there's a chance??" He then laughed and winked at me. I should have walked out of the interview right then and there. I didn't. I sat there speechless.The biggest label in the industry had called and I didn't wan to ruin my chances. I was unemployed and wanted a job in the music industry. This is what many women are faced with in the music industry. Having to put up with being objectified in order to stay in the game or even get in the industry.
Name withheld - because I'm still afraid.
________________________________________
Thank you for using your formidable following as a place for these conversations Bob. It's invaluable. I find all of the conversations going on around this issue to be fascinating, particularly here in the business that has been my life for 45 years. I've never experienced sexual harassment as an artist, other than in my 20's when I heard an idiot fan at a band house suggest to my bandmates that they go to my bedroom and rape me. Needless to say my bandmates shut him down. Oh, and unrelated to music, I was raped and stabbed in my 30;s and lived to tell the tale, but somehow that doesn't feel germane to the discussion. Wow… that says something. But even in that situation it was so clear to me - it was about power, not sex.
We are indeed talking about power, and its abuse and the paralyzing effect on employees - both men and women. And the boys club mentality that can foster continued abuse. Whoever recommended here that HR departments be an independent organization had a brilliant idea. Until it is made safe for employees to make use of the mechanism that is supposedly in place two protect them - if there are no consequences, it will continue. But now we ARE seeing consequences and that's a great thing. But the pendulum is swinging so far that due process has gone out the window. Any woman who has a bad date or a famous boyfriend who was a jerk, can state anonymously that they were abused and recklessly destroy someone's hard earned career out of vengeance. That's a very dangerous possibility.
Lastly, I urge folks to keep their radar up for the reverse sexism that is rampant. For example, James Corden had a Dating Game type skit the other night where a row of men were assessed by random women from the audience as to whether they were worthy of a date with her. Usually it was an evaluation of their appearance, or a remark or job James declared as lame, and they would be rejected by falling into a giant box of balls. Can you imagine the outrage if this were men rating women for their desirability? How in the hell does this get by the producer as a good idea? We still have SO far to go. It will be interesting to see how we get there from here.
And really lastly - I'm sorry, but I don't think women can expect to have it both ways, and hey - I grew up in San Francisco in the 60's with free love and rock and roll, so….I assure you, I am NOT conservative. But….there are the Grammys rife with #Me too spirit one minute and female artists bending over shaking their barely covered tits and asses and grabbing their crotches in simulated orgasms the next. You can't behave like a sex object and then feel incensed when you're treated like one. I know, that's going to get me in a lot of trouble but I had to say it. Respect starts with self respect. And both women and men have a lot of work to do. Remember "consciousness raising"? I think it's time for a comeback!
Shari Ulrich
________________________________________
Wow! The victimization of all these people is sad. Maybe it's just the world we live in and dealing with people on all different and weird and creepy levels is just part of life? It seems like nobody got the memo about how "nobody ever said life was fair"? Nobody ever said working in the music business was fair and it's always been full of eccentrics and loud mouths and freaks. It's a dog eat dog game and what does anyone expect? Welcome to the real world not the one that's supposed to be perfect and safe! Whatever that one is? Most hide there names here , so like my feminist friends say " your part of the problem"? I am sorry people are going through these kinds of things but hey , life is cruel , GROW UP! Handle your business ! If you can't perhaps you don't belong in the jungle? I lean towards you don't belong. If you did you would use your brain to work around the issues. Power makes people act a certain way. I know that , you know that and it will NEVER change.
Peace
CuzinD
Darren Eboli
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I want to tell a story that puts a man in a good light. That man is Ed McMahon. In 1965 I was very young, and he was my manager. He managed me for one year. He was already on the Tonight Show as Johnny's sidekick at the time, but he saw me perform in a New York club (singing and playing guitar,) and came up with an idea for a kid's show with me as the star. (That's another story.) During that time, he also wanted me to perform on what was called "The First Fifteen" on the Tonight Show. Back then, to sing on the show you had to audition for Skitch Henderson, the band leader. When that day arrived, Ed came into the audition with me, and brought the entire office staff in as well. I did my audition. After the audition, as we were leaving, I asked Ed why he brought everyone in like that. I wondered if that was the way it was always done. He smiled and said, "No not always, but Skitch has a reputation with the ladies." Looking back on it, I like the way he put that. He was a gentleman. But apparently the reality wasn't so genteel.
Tracy Newman
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It is all so much more confusing in the larger sense of things. There is no doubt these actions are reprehensible. But when sex, drugs and rock and roll is celebrated. Groupies are celebrated, even bragging in books, it makes the message fit the actions. What did we think was going to happen. As usual, don't look, don't tell, don't lift the veil of secrecy. Plus now with songs with outright sexual overtones, sexual language, videos depicting the same, becoming so numbing it is accepted as the norm. Sad state of affairs. I hate to say that we pandering to the lowest common denominator instead of lifting up people, butit seems to me that that is where we are.
It is all so much water over dam, true. But more importantly how does the genie go back into the bottle? That may take years to fix and more importantly what will our own look in the mirror say about our legacy as a society. That we were so self absorbed, that others didn't matter as long as we "felt good" about ourselves.
Wes Kelley
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Speaking of #ME TOO, I want to share #NO MORE! Many men in the music industry don't/didn't treat/relate/see women as equals. My point here is to say it's not just sexual abuse, it's sexual misuse, sexual harassment and anything else that makes you uncomfortable or is demeaning TO YOU! That said, I shared the air with some incredible women who were beyond capable, smart, talented and knew their shit. Often they would share thoughts/suggestions/ideas with their superior who took full credit and were lauded! I recall a young woman being told if she didn't want to clear the crumbs, plates and debris from her bosses table after he lunched in his office with managers, agents, employee or family members, she would be fired! H.R. took notes, and who knows where those notes landed! Certainly not on her side! She was fired for not doing her job! Yes, truth! Somewhere in the 90s it began to slowly change and I'm sure it didn't make everyone happy, but the stench of segregation was the culprit in clearing/cleaning the air. Working in the business a long time, I was lucky to work with some wonderful and incredible bosses who treated me like a 'star' (that I was), and a few who didn't. Regrets, I have none. But to those men, who didn't care or have any idea what their product managers, directors, assistants or secretaries did at the outer offices, or realize how many times their asses were saved as well as saving them extra work, keeping unhappy employee out of their office, etc. Again, it's a so sad! To bad! I have no qualms. The industry was good to me, however, like I said, not all bosses were! I was always fascinated by their camaraderie. When men moved on to other record companies, they would keep and continue to stay in touch, lunch, dine, wine, celebrate and share parties with each other. When women left - gone, forgotten and goodbye! I've been out for quite a while, yet every so often I'll get a call about one or another kind of abuse. Lot's less now, but still brewing!I PLEASE KNOW, IT'S NOT ONLY SEXUAL ABUSE! Those who know me, know I respect and love men! Fair men! Good men! This is not anti-men. This is anti-abuse. Yes men are also abused in many ways and some women are also guilty of these abuses. But overwhelmingly, it's women. Don't be forced out - ROAR OUT AND UP!
Thanks for lifting the veil...
Regards,
Rose Gross-Marino
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I ran a famous music venue as a man. Ten years later I was rcruited again to come back and fix it. I've been a trans woman full time for 2 years. I can tell you that as a woman I was forced the fuck out and after being ignored by corporate for over a year with no HR support. And I'm mad. I've never proclaimed myself as a victim. I am now. I can't talk about the details due to legal issues. I'm not really motivated to shout out names or to rat anyone out. But I will be the advocation in the future responsibly. I have a voice. And it's loud.
-Maci Jane
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We all have stories about harassment and inappropriate behaviour and comments. Unfortunately it's life.
Interesting that no ones's talking about the star fuckers and the women who will cross any boundary to get where and what they want.
(anon-a woman)
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And the problem is that when the victims dont call out the perps it just continues, effectively making them accomplices in future abuses that take place.
Chris M
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HR isn't the problem. They report to the CEO. That's the problem. Need to report to the board. Also when the ceo is a chief offender (EMI in my day) what do you expect him to tell HR to do? His bidding. It's all sick and fucked uo and I'm so glad it is being outed and hopefully coming roan end. The next generation won't stand for it.
Thanks
Scott Hughes
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Think Portnow will go down? Nah.
The letter the "girls club" sent was interesting. Obviously a club
that's somewhat exclusive. It's hard enough knocking on the
ceiling without wondering if our fellow females will open the
door ahead of time.
Janie Hoffman
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