Bob, just curious, did you get any negative emails from or hear of anyone criticizing Amanda Palmer who is more successful than she is? A great friend of mine always says, "When someone tries to bring you down...it's because they are already beneath you."
Casey Dinkin
__________________________________
Geez Bob - kerfuffle indeed. But why? It can't get any simpler. If you're a person, musician or not, who disagrees with Amanda Palmer's methods, you probably disagree with her aesthetic. That's neither bad nor good; it's just true. So if you don't see things from her point of view, don't play with her / attend her shows / buy her product / give a shit. None of the complaints are coming from anyone who has actually participated with her, correct? So WTF?
Basia Buffy
__________________________________
Amanda Palmer is a creative mad genius. In 2003 Oedipus from WBCN introduced us and we became fast friends. There are many stories to tell and I will take the blame for convincing her to sign with Roadrunner after every label told her no thank you. I also managed her solo career during the "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" album non-launch when Cees Wessel bailed on her. Because of my friendship and business relationship with her over the years I feel qualified to chime in and give an educated perspective on Amanda's recent accused skullduggery. Besides being a musical pioneer -she is a master at using social media and before social media she was a master at promotion and was always able to close the deal. She is a student of P.T. Barnum and a great salesperson who can sell ice to the eskimos. I could argue both sides on whether she should pay muscians to join her in on stage in each city. Yes- she raised over a million dollars on Kickstarter and probably should give some kind of financial reward to those muscians who play with her but she isn't twisting anyone's arm to get on stage with her. Egos always rule over logic and what upcoming musican wouldn't want to be on stage with Amanda Palmer? Knowing Amanda -she probably has already spent the Kickstarter money on her music/art and giving her fans the ultimate entertainment experience. Amanda is a true artist and show woman! People are jealous because she has the chutzpah to do what she wants without worrying about what people think. You're either in or you're out and no one can deny she stands and delivers. If you have a problem with Amanda Palmer then as we say in New Jersey "go fuck yourself"! "Genius is Pain"!
Harvey Leeds
__________________________________
I just wanted to say that Amanda Palmer has played shows for The Rumpus, my web magazine, and a lot of other places, for free. There has always been a free economy among artists, playing each other's shows for little or no money. Authors are the same way. I've written for dozens of literary magazines without expecting to get paid, even when they had a paid editor on staff. But when Esquire or Spin want me to write something I expect to get paid. That's the difference.
I made my first movie last year (hitting theaters in a couple of weeks) called About Cherry, featuring James Franco, Heather Graham, Lili Taylor, Dev Patel, and Ashley Hinshaw. It was a low budget film and every actor did it for the SAG minimum, which is about $250 a day. Artists want to work with other artists, and I've never met an actor who wasn't a real artist. Every actor wants to be in a movie that is good, that has integrity. Whether my movie achieved that is subjective, but the motivations of the actors are pure. That's the main reason low budget independent movies continue to get made, because well known actors want to make art, even though they don't have to.
When they work for Disney they have agents and managers ready to squeeze as much money as they can get.
Amanda Palmer is a real artist. She's worked on lots of people's projects without getting paid because she's a person who cares about making art. People want to play with her because they respect the integrity of what she's trying to do. That's how it works.
Stephen Elliott
__________________________________
I had opportunities to bat against Nolan Ryan and catch a long bomb from Joe Montana but I declined both cause they weren't willing to pay me the MLB and NFL minimum. Get a fucking life people! Life experiences aren't always about getting paid. Lighten up and have some fun. No one was mandating your participation, it's solely voluntary. Such rigid, inflexible thinking is unhealthy and counter to the innovative, experiential vibe Amanda Palmer is trying to create at her shows. Ever see a Neil Finn concert? The audience truly becomes a part of it. It's not a formulaic show, like what many artists deliver nightly.
Stuart K. Marvin
__________________________________
Bob,
Your mailbag has many perspectives, but I'd like to emphasize one point: Musicians who are starting out need to learn when to take opportunities, and when not to.
This includes when to open for national and touring artists. A new, local band will usually have to do this for free, without a guarantee there will be a great crowd.
In 2009 I got to play with Diane Birch. I outsold all the acts, including Diane, who was new on the scene then, because I was the local act and got my family and friends there. I didn't make money from the ticket sales, and I'm not complaining. I sold merch that night; that gig opened a few doors, and I've played that large club again.
I've done other gigs that were a waste of time, like a poorly attended charity event at a cool club that cost me more in gas than the charity raised.
Some gigs are worth doing for free. Most are not. When a musician is starting out, they need to figure out when it's worth it. No one can teach them this. We learn from striking out and hitting home runs.
I'd love to play at an Amanda Palmer show! It would help rejuvenate my spirits before taking on my next cover gigs that pay the bills. The people complaining simply haven't learned when to take opportunities, or when not to. They are jaded.
Mike Vial
PS: If Amanda Palmer paid these volunteer musicians $100-300 each, she'd take crap for that too. People are going to complain no matter what she does. Christ! Chicago Public Schools are on strike! Why aren't people taking about the state of our teachers and the classrooms being overly filled? This level of outrage over AP is ridiculous.
__________________________________
Don (via Bob)
have you looked up her ticket prices?
I'm seeing her in Toronto, at the Phoenix (~1000 seater concert theatre and club) for $23 Canadian per ticket, where I'll be no more than 65 feet from the stage...
This summer I saw Florence and the Machine put on a middling set at the Molson Amphitheatre for ~$70 per ticket, in the last section before the grass...
I saw Dead Can Dance put on an excellent set at the Sony Centre for ~$70 per ticket, middle of the theatre...
I'm going to see Peter Gabriel next week at the Air Canada Centre for ~$80 per ticket to sit in the third level, three quarters of the way to the back on the side...
She's not screwing her fans on ticket prices. And, though she and the band and the promoters will make out alright, I doubt she's going to buy a Bentley with the proceeds, even after merchandise is rolled in...
peace,
bud latanville
__________________________________
People get defensive when some one works the system to their advantage
The complaining musicians are just upset because they're not Amanda Palmer
Morley Bartnoff
__________________________________
ask johnny rotten. All press is good press in the end. Your true fans understand you and will stick with you and even defend you. The rest? Loudmouth discount dilemma. They shout you down but otherwise would offer you nothing in the first and final place.
Amanda doesn't need lemmings. She has scooted by that curve and is on the straight away. Wherever it leads.
Dennis Pelowski
__________________________________
Bob you might want to read how the same magazine that wrote about how Amanda Palmer can't pay musicians was on Craigslist because they claimed they can't pay their writers the week before publishing the story on Amanda Palmer.....
http://noisey.vice.com/blog/prefix-mag-cant-afford-to-pay-their-music-writers
Zack Starikov
(once a touring musician turned full time band manager / marketing associate at small indie)
__________________________________
I have to laugh at all the haters out there. She pays her touring band and stage crew. She's not asking for the local symphony players to gig with her, but for her fans to join in on the party.
She could've charged people some sort of gold package "meet & greet & play with me" thing for big dollars. Instead, she asked for fans who could play an instrument if they want to sit in on some songs FOR FREE! If she would've charged, people would be complaining about that.
Hey Amanda, if you need an extra drummer in Milwaukee, I'll sit in for free...
Bettine
__________________________________
As mentioned in some responses, this whole thing is a PR blunder more than anything else. Some ridicule publicists, but I for one would have STRONGLY advised AP to re-word her post to avoid this backlash. It's been made pretty clear that her touring band gets paid.
There's a local band here in Boston, Session Americana, who have musicians sit in with them all the time. These nights are some of the BEST nights of music I have ever seen. The camaraderie amongst the musicians is unforgettable. Do some come play for beers & hugs? Yes. But guess what? Not only don't they care, but as someone who has done some work with the band, I cannot count how many amazing musicians have asked me â€" "do you think you could ask Session Americana if I can sit in with them sometime?" Never ONE time has anyone asked if they'd get paid. Although the AP's shows are very different, they do share that feeling of community and joy it seems. And you can't really put a price on that.
All of this said, I have always fought for musicians to get paid fairly. This situation however, is entirely voluntary, and those who participate are doing so for what they feel is a once in a lifetime experience. And...I guess one could add to their resume "performed with Amanda Palmer on her 2012 tour", right?
Thanks for having a platform for these valuable discussions.
Susan Scotti
__________________________________
"The only people who think about money more than rich people are poor people"
...and there are so many ways to be poor.
These caustic responses have a tone of the selfish relatives of lottery winners.
Would the response be the same if it were the Rolling Stones or Tom Petty or any legacy(rich for a long time) performer? Or a true starving artist staffing the band from the crowd 10minutes before showtime?
Whats amazing to me is to think that implementing this idea on an extended concert tour will actually cost more in real time and money, than merely rounding-up and paying scale to local professionals.
This was an offer on amandapalmer.net; It's a fan club. And an offer made to her closest unknown "friends", and none of them will see this as anything but a wondrous experience.
True artists in any form create an experience...
Dan Thorsen
__________________________________
I think everyone is upset with what Amanda Palmer said and how she stated it. Getting this much press on the eve of her record release is probably what she really wanted and she got it by making a ruckus. Don't take the rest so seriously.
Peter Gianakopoulos
The Old School Records
__________________________________
I've been following this kerfuffle in some of my friends' Facebook posts, but haven't weighed in. I have mixed feelings about this, but the bottom line is, if somebody wants to play for free, it's their choice. I've done it a lot and will do so in the future.
Not too long ago, a friend of mine gave me some advice about being a professional musician that makes a lot of sense to me. It goes something like this:
There are 3 factors that determine the quality of a gig:
1) The Money
2) The Music
3) The Hang
If any two of those factors are positive in your view, it's a good gig; i.e. Good Music+Good Hang (but no Money)=Good Gig. Or, Good Money+Good Hang (but bad music)=Good Gig.
If there is only one factor that is positive, you may want to reconsider; i.e. Good Music (but no Money and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig. Or, Good Money (but bad Music and bad Hang)=Not So Good Gig.
You get the idea.
The thing about this approach is that it's coming from the "Sideman" mentality. If you're trying to be an artist, then I feel you should do whatever YOU feel it takes to improve yourself and promote your work in any way that works for you.
Thanks!
-Dave Nelson
__________________________________
And one more thought- instances of people joining in on concerts spontaneously are mentioned. THAT is completely different! Amanda is SEEKING out musicians to WORK (learn her songs, practice @ sound check) in trade for some form of glory. So many people think that musicians are up there screwing around, and yes there are many who do. But the ones we want to HEAR are the ones that work hard at their craft and cultivate their talent. Transportation to the gig, strings, reeds, stage wear; these things are NOT FREE. Anybody who works for free is a sucker, simple and plain.
This has nothing to do with jealousy of her kickstarter campaign for the musicians I know that are upset by this; it just reminds us that, in addition to club owners that expect bands to work for free, publishers that expect writers to write for free (or whatever other arts-related skill one cares to mention) that now there is someone allegedly ON OUR SIDE (ie a fellow musician) who has not learned from climbing the ladder of success that working for free is bullshit.
Derek See
__________________________________
As a musician without traction and just getting started,,, I want to get paid but found it to be a hard thing to do in this economy... Live music has not died,,but is on life support.. I am luckily self employed. And in my day job i had to advertise and go out and find the work. I did it all for free with the hope i would get work. To me i see music business the same way. You have to put yourself out there so that people will know who you are...and that may involve playing for free so that you can advertise yourself live...if you are good enough, you will eventually get paid
Rusty Tillack
__________________________________
Several years ago I managed a band called The Poppies. It was a three piece post-psychedelic, group featuring Roger Greenawalt, Clifford Lane and Libby Martin. The live concept was based on a similar model to Amanda's with an inner core of experienced musicians and an open audition to anyone who could play at a reasonable level on the evening before or the afternoon of the show. People loved the idea and turned up in droves for the auditions.
We had some wild and very successful gigs in NYC, with stage and the audience practically exploding with people. As result of the buzz we scored a significant deal from Columbia but despite the deal and the backing of a major at a time (early 90's) when labels still had budgets for developing acts, we found it was financially and logistically impossible to take the concept on the road. With costs today so high, good on Amanda if she pulls this off.
Rory Johnston
__________________________________
am leasing from them for free to "promote" Mercedes. Fuck Amanda Palmer. We all know she spent 5k making that record and went and "bought" her own Mercedes. In reality I don't care because her band will suck and we will forget about her in 2 weeks.
It is no different then this....
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-306672.html
Devin Bronson
__________________________________
It is significant to me that I have read more about Amanda in the past few months than I have in the past ten years. Yet, I have not heard a note of this new music. Not on tradition mediums, not in a bar, not in a car blasting it driving by, not online and nobody has said, "You have to hear this song!"
It is hard to disagree with any of the sentiments in the mail bag. I do know that my return on investment for 10 years as a professional musician is at around 50 cents an hour. Don't get into it for the money and don't let money validate your success and you will enjoy yourself and others.
Will Dailey
__________________________________
I can understand why some musicians are upset by this. We all feel underpaid at times, and the more members in your band, the more mouths there are to feed. In the end this is not a black and white issue. If you are willing to play for free for a great experience, or some exposure, that's great. Just don't play for free all the time because people will start expecting it.
Alex Perry
__________________________________
You shouldn't dismiss the people denouncing this as just jealous or haters. It's not just people begging for internships who should have issue with this.
The problem is that it sets a bad precedent.
Why stop at day players. Why stop at "free beer and hi fives."
I'm sure with Amanda's status, she could start a kickstarter campaign with packages like $1.000 you get to guitar tech for her. $5,000 you get to drive her around on tour. $10,000 you get to do her accounting. I'm sure her loyal ad devoted fanbase would jump at those.
It's disgusting and abusive. Yes drum machines put people out of work, but it's a necessary advancement and worth the trade off.
What she's doing is bad for the economy.
I don't play cello, so it doesn't effect me one way or another, but people should have a problem with this. Way more than just other jealous musicians.
- Neil Rubenstein
__________________________________
Pay a person for work performed. Period. We can't sustain a business when folks like Amanda raise thousands of dollars and then don't pay a fair wage.
Yes there are plenty of musicians that will do it for free, and some opportunity costs are worth it but come on.
When we do free shows, like radio promo, free shows we still pay people for their time and talent.
Too many kickstarter artists raise a bunch of cash then don't use it to pay their bills.
Graham Kurzner
LuckiePierre Entertainment
__________________________________
An author contacted me the other day to ask if he could use a couple of quotations from an article of mine in a book he's writing about John McLaughlin. He also asked if I would be interested in reading a draft of the relevant chapter. I said yes on both counts.
A thank-you email arrived with the chapter attached. When I read it, I was sufficiently inspired to go searching for transcripts of interviews I'd done 40 years ago. It took me a while to find them and a lot longer to locate references to the young guitarist, but having identified a few paragraphs, I thought I might as well type them up.
All in all this took the best part of a day. And I don't even know the writer. No doubt some of your correspondents would label me a mug.
Best
John Pidgeon
__________________________________
Well, it is called the GRAND THEFT ORCHESTRA. No, seriously, though, she isn't forcing anyone at gunpoint to play for free, it is all a PERSONAL CHOICE! Get over it people!
Jeremy Ferrick
__________________________________
My god Bob, most musicians with heart have played numerous gigs for a net loss. If you've got something to say and the skill and chops, all you need are audiences. It's always been my belief that rest will work itself out. I played with Sylvester in the 70s and if I actually had any money back then I would have paid for the education.
Sent from my iPhone
Gary D. Strauss
Strauss & Strauss, PLLC
__________________________________
Great comments, Bob. No one mentioned how the "dream" of this business has changed. Sure, Chuck Berry and every second-tier jazz musician in history has toured by picking up musicians in local cities. But that's not analgous to AFM.
When I was young you played because you knew that the payoff was money, fame, girls, and fun. Today, the odds of getting those things are so long that they are essentially zero. And adolescents and post-adolescents are different than they were forty years ago, as you've also addressed recently. Not just slower to grow up, but also more group-oriented. Not as tough in some ways, and not as fond of certain forms of competition. But nicer in some ways, too.
Having grown up too protected, too coddled, lacking toughening experiences, they yearn for authentic experience. More than ever kids play music to put a stake in the ground, to be an individual and to have unique experiences. So, of course playing with AFM is a great opportunity. It won't catapult them to fame unless they are incredibly lucky but it may be the high point of your career.
Or, as the head of one of the departments at Musicians Institute in Hollywood put it, "When we started the school we were creating session musicians, the next Larry Carlton or Hal Blaine. Now, the only time some of these students will ever spend making professional music is when they get onstage with a guest musician in the auditorium here at the school.
Phil Hood
Publisher, DRUM!
__________________________________
For as much that is written about AFP, I rarely hear anything about "the music".
And my guess, is that the music is really just a small part of the entire business. The shows, the events, the spectacles..... it's all part of what she's about. Whatever that is.
She's an entertainer. That's my take. And that's great.
But until she hits the mainstream (which is doubtful) and reaches a wider audience.... all we'll have is the music. And nobody's talking about it.
You've never talked about it. That I recall.
Which leads me to the conclusion that it's not spectacular. But I could be wrong.
Then again:
No one has sent me the latest youtube video of AFP's latest song.
Thanks,
Bill Seipel
__________________________________
For the last two years I've done a once a month show at a well-established Chicagoland club (FitzGeralds) which I bill as Ralph Covert's Acoustic Army. The "Army" is the audience which is the band... I post charts to my songs online and encourage audience members to bring whatever instruments they want and play along. I have both pro musicians with free nights who join in along with home players and beginners (I've had kids as young as 9 playing along as well.). I don't know until that night what will happen, and I've had everything from a 4 piece band backing me to full harmony choir to just me solo. I also have a dialogue with the audience so that they pick the songs. The musicians not only don't get paid, they pay a cover to be there. Doubters beware, but we've had some pretty great musical moments along the way.
No haters yet, but I'm sure if I had the amount of buzz Amanda has had they'd be lining up three deep to kick me. Whatever. It won't make me rich, but it sure contributes to my musical sanity. And it's a heck of a lot of fun for all involved.
Kerfluffles be damned. Good on Amanda Palmer and everyone else with the balls to try something new.
Best,
Ralph Covert
__________________________________
Glad to hear she made all that money, but God her voice is just so damn annoying!
Thanx,
Jeffrey Cane
__________________________________
Amanda's Kickstarter - let's remember she had to provide product to all those supporters. She didn't just pocket all that money. She had to manufacture things.
My 30-piece band opened for Dresden Dolls in Chicago last year. Amanda knows what she's doing and understands her core. That's what this is about, not getting freebie musicians.
I'm in a 30-piece based in Chicago. We travel all over the US. Individually we make nothing. We all have lives and families and jobs and other bands. Making art isn't a living, it's a way of life.
Bottom line - will people line up in droves to play with Amanda for free? Yes. All haters, look inward.
Andy Deitrich
__________________________________
Ask Kickstarter how much of that $1.2 million went to them... it's a sweet cash deal as all they have to do is run a website. Ok there is slightly more than that, but they don't do fulfillment and they definitely don't offer refunds if folks squelch on their promises. I've backed many a project, and at this point I'm about at 60% getting what I've paid for. Amanda Palmer is in that group who followed through.
Dave Parsons
__________________________________
For all the Amanda Palmer hoopla..I've never even heard anyone say a thing about her music. Does it move you? I've never heard it.
Sean Mormelo
__________________________________
The bartender gets paid the promoter gets paid the bathroom attendant gets paid the ticket takers get paid the merch guy gets paid the foh gets paid but the local starving back up guys don't get paid. This is bullshit. Even that drummer on 3rd street promenade makes a few bucks a day. What happened to the whole "we're in this together" attitude. It doesn't matter if she raised a million bucks or not. If she's part of the community, then spread the wealth. Or at least kick down a couple hundred bucks a night. I'm certainly not going take the side of "genius marketing" over the needs of struggling musicians.
And Chuck Berry paid his guys. Shit you can even
Make a couple bucks playing with 14 other bands at the Viper Room.
Bob Hamel
__________________________________
Wow.
I wish there was some way to calculate the demographics of the people that replied to you.
All the "she should pay!" people sound remarkably like the old-school-of-thought "they should pay $15 for a CD!" music execs.
I make music full-time. Yeah, it's not easy, financially. But I can't wrap my head around the people (musicians, even?!) excoriating her for this. It's utterly insane. Count me with Zoe Keating: all my best "breaks" have come from playing free shows (most notably, like Zoe, touring with Imogen Heap). It's the reason I can get in my car and play 200 shows in the last 12 months.
It's great to get paid... WHEN IT'S MY SHOW. She's not asking them to entertain for free, she's inviting them to share in the moment.
Granted, I'm a singer-songwriter, not a session player, and I know it's different, but there's a super-easy solution if you don't want to volunteer: don't.
To go to any effort whatsoever to criticize what she's done here is utterly incomprehensible.
-Levi Weaver
P.S. Careful re-posting the emails from people who disagree with you on this; they'll probably ask to be paid scale for their writing and insight. :)
__________________________________
Here's a response to the Amanda Palmer situation written by someone who actually ran sound for her at one of her Kickstarter parties. I think what he wrote encapsulates the working musician's perspective in the most succinct and effective way. I write to you as a musician in a nationally touring band making a living from playing music. Our trumpet player performed with Amanda when she came to Brooklyn - and he was offered the gig again and turned it down - "not worth his time". Incidentally, I went to the same high school as Amanda and opened up for the Dresden Dolls occasionally over the first few years when they were just starting out.
Now I'm rambling, but I urge you to read this piece and consider the points the author is making.
http://justincolletti.com/2012/09/13/in-response-to-amanda-palmer/
Best regards, ?Sasha Brown
__________________________________
While I have no problem with an Amanda Palmer asking for free horns and strings, (what else is new in the world of gigging) I think that the methodology is faulty, purely from a musical perspective.
With free help, one rehearsal, and supposedly "easy parts", the whole musical experience could suffer, either from mistakes or maybe from well played but simplistic dumbed-down arranging...The sound guy probably has instructions to mute at will, if things go south, anyway.
Nevertheless, I suppose that Ms. Palmer is equally open to the mathematically distant possibility that Sonny Rollins and Yo-Yo Ma would show up and give her a pro-bono sonic reach-around as well as the reality of the free labor musical market.
Most creators try and make the best music they can, and are particularly conscientious. I for one, would be hesitant to leave that much up to happenstance after having spilled my creative soul into writing the best parts that I could. Why include a part that is expendable?
I do appreciate her fearlessness/cheapness paradox cocktail and admire her ability to make things happen in her career and wish her well.
But I ask you, did Shakespeare envision meaningful elocution or a braying in-articulation for performance of his sonnets?
Chris McKenna
__________________________________
Just because Palmer has the bandwidth to raise all that Kickstarter cash, doesn't mean that she can't reach out to see if smart, young talented musicians who know that the network is everything will take advantage of this experience. I would pay to play tambourine on that tour.
Just like baby band acts buy onto Live Nation opening slots. Perception and resume build is key. Unless as a musician you enjoy playing to dive bars your whole career.
Scott Brill-Lehn
__________________________________
And what is the difference between ms palmer and Walmart paying their employees a substandard wage or the common practice of profitable companies replacing their paid workers with unpaid interns who have little or no hope of ever landing a job at that company? Sorry Bob, the music industry has been decimated, we're expected to make music for free and play for free. Take the fact that it's an art out of it and it's just another business. Few professionals are asking for handouts, merely fair compensation for their services. You are basically towing the republican line of "remove the burdens of regulations and minimum wage and free up the job creators". I do not fault ms palmer for raising 1.2 mil, for being successful, or for marrying a successful man of means but she should pay her employees for providing a service...ESPECIALLY as she has the means to.
Jack Morer
__________________________________
Hell, I'm gonna hope this starts a trend. Jackson Browne is heading back out in October - I'm gonna go change the strings on my lap steels and watch Twitter like a hawk. :)
Tom Hampton
www.tomhampton.com
__________________________________
1) this is bigger than AFP. its a big debate. I posted a super long comment on http://www.prefixmag.com about it, i had so much to say!
Lots of people have interesting (not sure if valid) points about the"giving the impression" that musicians don't need to be paid. But, I think they are making Amanda a scapegoat.
And, though I am an actual fan, I think she did make at least one mistake:
I was at the D.C. show last night ... (I didn't know any of the controversy until today) ... and, in retrospect, I think her mistake was not focusing on the "community" aspect enough.
As a local D.C. musician, myself, I would have been interested to know these people, would've looked them up. Amanda just didn't make a big deal about these string and horn players being LOCAL musicians, who were getting a chance to play with her in front of their hometown audience.
She asked for applause for them and stated more than once that they were "volunteers" but I got the impression that, even though they were on tour (which means expenses were paid), they were just foregoing a salary -- Amanda has gotten musicians to do that before, so it wouldn't be a new thing, but I was a little confused.
2) What musician isn't guilty of doing what some are reprimanding Amanda for doing?
I hire some musicians, and some musicians I ask to join me for fun. It depends on the situation and it depends on how much time they are investing, and whether or not I know they make their living as musicians or not. Just because I, myself, don't make much money doesn't mean I deserve to ask people to play for free, or that I shouldn't have to pay my friends who are working artists. pay them something. but, still, it depends!
3) Everyone is putting themselves in the shoes of the "volunteer" musicians, but not many are putting themselves in Amanda's shoes and really looking at it from her perspective.
If I was her, I'd probably do the same: be frugal, continue asking for some help from people in exchange for having a good time. I'd be grateful if people were willing to volunteer their time to add some finishing touches on the tour, and I'd be gracious if it didn't work out, but do the tour anyway.
4) Its not just that touring is expensive, or that the kickstarter money was essentially a pre-sale, but sustaining her career will continue to require money and it will be hard to duplicate the 1million dollar campaign.
From her own numbers, she might see $100K of her kickstarter million. She's very smart to act like there is NOT another million waiting around the corner, and she still has to save her pennies for future projects and tours.
thanks,
S. Fridrich Music
__________________________________
honestly....the hype is all great stuff...but...bob...please...I'm looking for one a-palmer song that warrants the hoopla ...one wonderful moment...something that makes it all make sense...all the best to her for succeeding and making progress in the realm of the impossible...but please...just point out one sonic treasure that makes it all worth the hype...if it is the sum-total of her 'thing' then a-ok...but is there anything aural that I am missing?
royds
__________________________________
You play music for Fun or Money
If you're not getting either, don't do it
Blessed when you get both
Paul Kochanski
__________________________________
If the music sucks...
I don't dig musicians that expect to get paid for anything when they can't bring anyone out to the gig to pay for tickets. I've turned down shit loads of paying gigs because im not into the music. But the very few musicians I know who I call friends, I'll play free with just for the good times.
These wannabes that think they should get paid, no problem book a gig where the bar lets you collect ticket sales at the door. Bar keeps booze cash, you get door. Count number of people, if less than 100-200, it's your fault for not having an audience.
Boo, boo, VMware gives free software, my company can't afford to give free. See you later, you go out of biz. Imagine If google tried to sell their search features, they'd of failed pretty fast.
A friend asked me to play a few gigs with him where the venue paid us each seperatly. $50. I said I don't want the cash it makes me feel like selling my performance is cheepening the experience. It was not good thinking my time is only worth $50. I'd rather play free and once I build demand I can worry about cash then and likely make tons more. But other musicians always want cash and forget about building an empire the way google did it. Google is smart. Musicians are too messed up with hype and expectations, they tend to believe in things that are not real.
Carl Foggin
__________________________________
I love your letter, and usually enjoy the way you see things and help to encourage a discussion about current music biz topics.
This one however, I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand that you may be applauding her for thinking "outside the box", and this whole thing will likely not only supply her with marginally adequate (and desperate) musicians, but enough press to earn her more notoriety and fuel ticket sales by friends of those "selected" marginally adequate musicians to be able to see their wannabe buddies up on stage. All that said, this issue at it's core has a major problem; exploitation. And no matter how cool this idea might be, the principle is wrong and should not be allowed or tolerated or celebrated. Where will it end? Why not also support the company who has come up with a brilliant way to cut costs by employing child labor? Or a major company like Apple saying "Hey Apple fans... come and help us put together our latest iphones for a day... we'll buy you a beer and give you and Apple tshirt, and you'll have a cool story that you can tell all your friends." That's thinking outside the box, isn't it? Why is this any different, and OK?
She is zeroing in on musicians; people who are already hard-up and fighting a battle for survival in a country where popular culture is constantly chipping away at the idea that a musician is a skilled person, and that the service they provide is worth compensation. I don't care how much money she has raised, or what she does with it. If she wants a "professional-ish" string and horn section to perform with her onstage, they deserve to be paid. She isn't inviting people who are in the audience to come up and jump up and down on stage and have fun with her, without having any time commitment, talent and/or skill, and just for fun. She is specifically advertising for musicians who are "professional-ish", which means to me "not professionals, but perhaps weekend warriors", or those who are required to have a day job, because there aren't enough gigs in their local market to sustain themselves as sole musicians. She is asking them to come to a daytime rehearsal, be able to play proficiently, be able to read music, and perform with her onstage for her concert. That's quite a time commitment, and high set of standards. She's looking for skilled workers (musicians) to help her manufacture her product (a live musical performance), which she will then sell (tickets) and keep all the profits (aside from a beer and a tshirt, which probably will cost her $0-$5 if she is shrewd), herself.
If she wants something for free... then she should provide something for free. Hold her concert at a school... she can work with the musicians for the afternoon day in their classes, where she shares something with them about making it in the music biz, and the students then rehearse with her. Then the students can play a concert with her at night, and the profits from the sales of the concert can be shared to pay her a fee, AND to be funneled back into the music department. That sounds fair, to me.
Otherwise, if you are to agree with this theory of her exploiting musicians, then I would like to invite you to come and help me write my book about the music business, which I will be selling to the public. I will buy you beer, give you a tshirt with the name of the book on it, give you a hug and a high five, but I will keep all the profits myself. I'll be sure to thank you inside the book for your help, where I will let everyone know that you did that work for free, and perhaps that will lead to more requests from other people asking you to work for free. You will receive no other compensation or credit, but you will for sure have an experience that you will remember for the rest of your life. I'm sure that will be more than enough compensation for you, your time, and your skill and talents that you lend my book.
Larry Lelli
professional musician, conductor, educator & author
New York, NY
__________________________________
I see bigger issues at hand here. I know it is an oft debated topic, but to me this goes back to the discussion of the ethics of Kickstarter. Unlike stock markets, there is no equity gained in the venture when a donation is made, and there is no governing body to make sure the money is used to benefit those that have invested. The purpose of the donation is to allow the person to use the funding as they see fit to create their singular vision. Your $20 donation does not constitute a binding agreement where you are then able to then influence the direction of the creation or how the funding is used. That already exists, it is called a stock market. If that is what you are looking for, go buy some stock and attend shareholder meetings...
We live in a supply and demand world. If professional musicians are willing to play with her for free, it is obviously because they feel they are receiving some other value (be it experience, notoriety, exposure, ect.) Maybe it is the business man in me, but I don’t think it is her responsibility to pay money on top of the consideration they are apparently already receiving. If she was not able to find people to play for free, she would pay, such is life...
If you feel scammed by Amanda, you've really put it upon yourself. There is no Securities and Exchange Commission for Kickstarter. Don’t donate to her in the future. Refuse to play for her for free. Just hope everyone else does as well.
Matt S. Benson
__________________________________
Wow... all of these angry musicians spitting their bile... about what? I wasn't familiar with Amanda Palmer before I started reading this stuff. I checked out the Kickstarter video, the explanation of where all the money is going/went, the offer for the "musicians" to participate in her shows and even a couple of her blog posts. What's the big fuckin' deal? From reading the letters it's obvious that most of these complainers didn't bother reading the details of the explanation of where the money is going. Like a lot of people in today's political climate, they start with the conclusion they seek, then jump up and down spouting their outrage without a true understanding of that which they bitch about.
Look, there's assholes in every walk of life. Amanda Fucking Palmer( love that name, btw) doesn't seem to be one of them. A lot of her critics, on the other hand...
All of the haters out there who whine and cry that they should be paid for their performances, you're right. You should be. When you go get the gig and do the work, you should be paid. If you get an offer to play and there's no money, feel free to turn it down. But AFP's not looking to hire YOU. She's inviting her fans, with at least marginal command of the instrument, to join the band on stage and participate for a couple of songs. Perfect for musicians who have other jobs or are in school and who play for the love of music and want a taste of playing with someone like AFP. She's willing to come early, hang with them, teach them their small, easy parts, get them into the show for free, give them some merch, raid the backstage hospitality tables & coolers, etc. and have a great time for the evening as party of the AFP Grand Theft Orchestra. What a great way to connect with fans, make new friends, etc. I don't play horns or strings, nor do I know her music, but she sounds like a lot of fun to hang with, and I'd do it in a heartbeat if she sought guitarists. She seems like a blast.
What? She wants people who can actually play the instrument? Of course she does. She's not stupid. She's not looking for Itzhak Perlman or Sonny Rollins. But she doesn't want someone who inherited Aunt Bessie's violin and can make screeching noises by dragging the bow across the strings either. I wouldn't want to sit in the audience and endure that. I imagine her fan-base is probably full of college student musicians and the like who would love to sit in for a couple of songs for the fun of it. They get it. It's fun.
I may not be a big-time national artist, but I'm a professional musician, I play for money and pay my band. I complain about 'weekend warriors' who have regular jobs and their garage bands who will play the bars for free or next-to-nothing, just to have people to play to, making it harder for those of us who do it for a living to make ends meet. I love to be paid. I negotiate in good faith and make it a point to try to get the best deal for each gig. But I don't pay every musician who happens to be at a gig and sits in with me for a couple of songs. "You blow harp? Great. You any good? Yeah? C'mon up. Let's give it a try. To be fair, if you suck, we'll stop. If not, let's have some laughs and see where it goes. I'll buy you a beer or two." That kind of spontaneity is a lot of fun. I don't ask for pay if I'm at someone else's gig and they invite me to sit in either. I sang a song or two with Michelle Shocked at a show earlier this year. She was so great. Lot's of fun. Didn't ask her for a dime. Had a blast.
Some people need to get over themselves and quit bloviating about how another artist interacts with their fans. She's not hiring a fucking band in each city. She put the offer out. Only the interested need reply. They'll do a little bit of homework to try to ensure that the music in the show doesn't suck. Big fat hairy deal. Some people need to pull the stick out of their ass and remember why they first started playing music: because it's fun. Having fun playing music is a way of life. I love playing with great musicians and go to lengths to surround myself with really talented people. But I don't care how amazing a musician these haters are, if I had unlimited financial resources, I wouldn't hire them simply for their attitude. They don't sound like they'd be that much fun to play or hang out with. There are too many talented musicians out there to waste time playing with people who behave like douchebags. Our music may be different, but I'd play with Amanda Palmer anytime... even for free.
Charlie Imes
__________________________________
If I were a musician and she asked me to play I would be there in a heartbeat. I might also ask her to tweet my info to her 650, 291 followers.
"Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
--Derek See "
Didn't Paul McCartney just play the Olympics for free?
Juliett Rowe
Atlanta
__________________________________
I've been playing professionally since '95 and full-time for the better part of the past ten years. I just got out of it and damn it feels great. There's no business left to do in this business. People just laugh at bands these days.........and I do too!
Donovan Pyle
--
Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
--
http://www.twitter.com/lefsetz
--
If you would like to subscribe to the LefsetzLetter,
http://www.lefsetz.com/lists/?p=subscribe&id=1
If you do not want to receive any more LefsetzLetters, http://lefsetz.com/lists?p=unsubscribe&uid=0eecea7b60b461717065cbde887c8e25
To change your email address http://lefsetz.com/lists?p=preferences&uid=0eecea7b60b461717065cbde887c8e25
--
Powered by PHPlist, www.phplist.com --
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: only a member of this blog may post a comment.