I just want to say that I would not be where I am today without years of playing for free or for expenses. I did this for years: opening for established acts, at tech conferences, at arts and ideas conferences, at conventions, at parties and art happenings.....almost anyone who would ask me and where I thought I might find an interesting and receptive audience. I always welcomed these opportunities. I wasn't very confident in social situations and I had terrible stage fright. Playing music was my way to participate, to feel like I belonged and to connect with people. It was also a valuable chance to try out my musical ideas for an audience and to learn how to cope with the stress. For years, that was payment enough. I lived cheaply and used the money I made from other sources (tech jobs, work as a session cellist, four years as member of Rasputina) to pay for my life so that if someone asked me to do go halfway around the world to play at some crazy event, I could say "Yes!".
As I got better, and more known, I got better opportunities but the best ones were still for free or for expenses-only.
On one occasion in 2005, I was asked by some artists to play at their event commemorating the 60th anniversary of the Trinity nuclear test. In the desert, with the help of fire and some huge diesel blowers, they planned to create a giant mushroom cloud at dawn. Could I play right after the explosion? It was a five hour drive to the desert, I'd have to protect the cello from dust and heat. No pay of course. It sounded wonderful. I composed a new piece of music for the occasion, practiced it for days and then headed out to the desert to camp out with and play for 100 total strangers. Xeni Jardin from Boing Boing was there and she covered the event. Shortly after that someone from NPR's Day to Day, who had also been there, invited me down to LA to play on the show. That was the first time my CD went to #1 on iTunes classical. A few months later Imogen Heap asked me to come on tour as cello-accompaniest and opening act...for expenses.
Now I have a booking agent and I get paid to perform but I still try and say yes to free concerts at intriguing or inspiring events. If I had to go back and do it all again, I would do it the same way. I think some people call it "paying your dues", but I call it the best time of my life.
Enjoy your emails. Thanks, Zoe Keating
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you are exactly right, Bob. as i wrote on a grumpy musician friend's FB page
I can actually imagine how she might have steamed through all the
money she raised making her record, funding her obviously top-flight PR machine, her starving managers, paying old bills, etc. I can see why it might be kicky -- and part of her sleep with the fans next-level mindset -- to get volunteers to join her and her band in each town. I think the big mistake was saying she couldn't afford to pay musicians. I bet she's paid a lot of musicians in the past. But saying she couldn't afford it here was a PR blunder, not least because every working musician and ink-stained wretch who can't raise a million on Kickstarter was certain to be pissed.
Jamie Kitman
(manager of OK Go among others)
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God, I've been online all afternoon trying to smack some sense into all these whinging wankers. FaceBook, PrefixMag...
SO many sour grapes out there...and SO little understanding of what it costs to run a business, tour, record, manufacture, market, promote and distribute an album on your own...oh AND GIVE TONS OF SHIT AWAY FOR FREE.
I'd play for her for free (but I do drink a lot).
Oy.
Hugo Burnham
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Bob,
This isn't the first time people have played with Amanda for free. Art and music are her family. Fans have brought meals backstage to her shows, her bands have shared strangers' apartments found over Twitter. Audiences love the people she brings along with her. And this is how she's always done it, ever since the Dirty Business Brigade. The only difference is that now she's made news pulling in a million bucks for the new album and tour, and people want to tell her how to use it.
I was at the New York record release concert on Tuesday night, and it was magical. Love her or hate her, AFP definitely knows how to put on a spectacle. And if her critics realized how much artists love performing with her, maybe they could forget their criticisms, and go back to playing their own music. Maybe then they'd be able to build a family like hers.
A fan
Olivia Li
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Most of the anger being directed towards Amanda Palmer seems to be from people who are only reading the poorly written, misleading articles that state she is unwilling to pay backing musicians and sites her as having 1.2 million in Kickstarter money to spend. All this despite the fact that she is touring with a core band of paid musicians and she has accounted for where all of the Kickstarter money went. She pays her touring and recording musicians, the people writing the articles about this omit that fact. I really don't see how she is hurting anyone here and many of the negative comments I'm reading about her start with "I've never heard of you before now but..."
Getting fan musicans to sit in as auxiliary band members is not an entirely new idea. Neil Finn did it a few years back on his "Band of Strangers Tour".
cheers,
Patrick Hayes
the Dead Volts
thedeadvolts.com
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That kickstarter campaign was made possible by her fans. She's indebted to them and not the musicians bitching about getting paid (or not). I'm not a Palmer fan but definitely appreciate her alternate methods for taking care of her fans, her band and herself. I wonder if people would complain about this had she not raised a million bucks for her album which, again, she only owes her fans for.
Ask Scot Halpin if volunteering for a live gig is abysmal. I'm pretty sure he regrets nothing about volunteering to sit in with The Who for the fun of it.
- Dominic Del Bene
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She could practically charge for the experience:
***Amanda Palmer Performance EXPERIENCE***
Come be a part of a big stage production with Amanda Palmer.
You get:
- An inside peek at Amanda's touring production.
- An afternoon rehearsal with instruction from Amanda and her band.
- A memorable once in a lifetime opportunity to perform 2-3 songs with Amanda and her band in front of a HUGE audience!
- Tickets to the show plus free beer and hugs!
Cost: $150 a person
Matt Butler
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When Amanda said she couldn't afford musicians, the first thing I thought of is this:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
If you haven't seen it, it's her breakdown of where the million dollars was going, prior to successful funding.
I don't think of her as now part of the financial elite; rather, I think of her as someone who is now working at a large scale with little left over after self-funding the empire. As a musician, the individuals I see getting upset over this complain about Amanda in terms of her "entitlement" or "privilege," but honestly? I think the musicians who are getting angry over the idea of payment are the ones who are feeling entitled.
Amanda Palmer isn't forcing anyone to play for free-- it's a self-selecting group of musicians who are responding to her call to play. You want to play for free/fun/exposure? Then email her. You want to get paid for a high exposure gig? Then go elsewhere, if you can.
Olga Nunes
PS: Erica Mulkey, who performs as Unwoman, makes many of the same arguments I did but in SFWeekly, AND she chose to perform with Amanda Palmer for free: http://bit.ly/Pxuvcu
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Hi Bob,
I saw Amanda Palmer on what I think was opening night of her current tour at Bard College. First thing I thought is, how the hell can she afford to bring 13 musicians on the road with her. Then I realized they were students at the school. It's genius, she gets to borrow their talent, they get a chance they otherwise would not have. While its cool that they had strings and horns, its the guys in her "touring" band that stole the show. Those guys rocked, extremely talented, and entertaining. I think a lot of what Amanda Palmer is doing is genius. Its just that her music doesn't resonate with me. If her music was half as good as her marketing the audience would be enormous. Now, I understand she has a very loyal fanbase and its great that she is able to raise that kind of money. I'ts just I have never read an article about Amanda Palmer which describes how amazing the music is, it's all how amazing her kickstarter campaign was. I don't mean to hate on Amanda Palmer either, its great what she is doing, and I realize maybe its just me that doesn't get her music. Its just a little like reading an article about how Apple scored a great deal on memory... who cares? .... Actually I do but, only after I fall in love with the product first, its then I want to know every little detail.
Pete Hanlon
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People are criticizing her for not paying musicians who jump onstage for one show? You kiddin me? This is a small step away from demanding that Palmer pay the people who sit next to me and sing along with every word of every song at the live show. Short version: haters gonna hate. Palmer is just taking the after-show meet'n'greet and putting these folks on stage. How many other musicians are going to show up in town 12 hours early and go to a rehearsal to babysit every superfan who could get to a pawnshop and buy a student-model viola?
Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Patrick Ferguson
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You are a clueless cockhead!
Diego Voglino - professional musician
Brooklyn, NY
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Bob-
From the way the internet exploded, I expected a narcissistic and tone-deaf exposition on the delights of meeting Amanda Palmer. What I found is an invite for locals to sit-in. She's also offering free merch, which has real value if the moonlighter is a fan. I think I'll put my pitchfork away.
Best,
Alex Stern
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She should just take it to the logical extreme and auction off the chance to play with her on eBay. Why beat around the bush? Let the market decide what it's worth.
Ian Kennedy
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Where were the actors unions to complain when The Flaming Lips were inviting people to join them on stage in furry costumes and crazy outfits? It's all part of the show. Amanda's on the right track because she's on her own track.
Nakia
NAKIA.NET (http://nakia.net/)
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I think the issue is at what point she crosses the border into exploitation of her fans. Let's not forget that this tour will probably sell out every night, so there is a nice nut there on top of all the money she already made in donations. fans have already "invested" by purchasing a ticket....does she really have to continually go to the well for more?
Don Bartlett
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Yeah, I don't see why everyone is throwing shade. I know Amanda Palmer made mad paper off that Kickstarter, but I don't see why her asking people to play with her for free is a big deal. She's pretty up front from the start about the musicians not being paid, it's not like she asked people to play and THEN they find out they aren't getting paid. It's volunteer based. No one is forcing anyone to play with her. Knowing her fan base, I bet a lot of people would love to play a few songs with her, for free. I'd rather be told up front I wasn't going to be paid for something then find out after the fact.
Candice Jones
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i think amanda palmer is loving more press. as she said on her kickstarter campaign, she was asking for her fans "to gather funds so that i have the capital to put it out with a huge fucking bang". we're now all contributing to the "bang" and we're not getting paid either.
robin danar
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No one should have to work for free, regardless of the industry. Musicians should get paid to perform just as writers should get paid to write. Doing things for "exposure" is bullshit. Harlan Ellison said it best: Pay the writer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Scott Heisel // Managing Editor
Alternative Press Magazine
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So...Palmer raises over a million dollars and then tries to get her fellow musicians to play for free...but the real problem is that those musicians...are haters? Quite the unfounded conclusion if you ask me -- especially for someone who seems to consider himself on the liberal-ish side of the political spectrum. I agree with you, however, that "Artists should have solidarity." The problem is -- solidarity generally doesn't involve said artists exploiting each other for financial gain.
Gotta' hand it to you, Bob -- when you're wrong, you're pretty spectacular about it...
Danny Shorago
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Therein lies the root of all problems in almost every facet of life today Bob: I deserve it because I want it and not because I worked harder than everyone else for it.
To paraphrase Tyler Durden from Fight Club: "We all grown up believing we will become movie stars and millionaires. We won't."
Funny. It was an invitation to play with a great act. Could have been a good time, could have been more. Never know if you are too busy hanging out with the chip on your shoulder. If you don't want to play on the terms provided then don't.
John C. Taxiarchis, Esq.
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Coming from experience, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing that she's offering free positions in her touring band. Its essentially an internship. The thing is....when these musicians (who some of which will be great) start bringing things to the table that amanda loves, and eventually feels like she can't do without, she'll be in a position where she needs to pay them to keep them on for tour number two or three. And also, no one with any type of a sincere heart, can continue to keep musicians on their tour for free for more than one tour, or maybe two max. She'll eventually realize how great they are, how much they add to the show, how much they add to the spectators experience, and finally that they are worthy of some type of salary. My guess is that she knows all this already, and is merely trying to find the best musicians she can and "build" them on the road. I've taken drum techs and merch guys on the road before for slightly over free, because we both agreed on the terms. They wanted to prove themselves, and I wanted someone to prove themself to me before I paid the going rate. And now I'm great friends with them to this day.
-dino campanella (drummer/keyboardist in dredg)
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Amanda's being innovative and she is looking for spontaneity every night and she will probably pull in a lot of people who will totally be down with doing this kind of work for free. What's lost on a lot of people is she NOT asking them to go on tour with her for 5-7 weeks. Just show up 1 night and make the experience fun and it gives every show a local flavor. I am willing to be that the people she has on her payroll are paid well and taken care of every night and day..
It's a sad but a true fact that when ever one band or musician does seem to make it there are always detractors willing to throw them under the bus. The music business is small in most towns, it would work so much better if musicians always talked positive about the bands that made it but that just isn't human nature. We saw this with the Alabama Shakes. Be careful behind every corner lurks a bitter musician....
Michael Creamer
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Bingo, Bob... Love her or not, Amanda is as loyal to her fans as they are to her. It's not as if she's socked away her Kickstarter take in the Cayman Islands or anything. She's used it to create things her fans love. And now she's offering some of those fans a chance to join her on stage. How is that, in any way, bad?
Steve Hochman
P.S. Remember when U2 would ask someone to come up from the audience and play guitar? How much did they pay to those kids? Did we hear anyone complaining? Hey, never mind that teen who took over for Keith Moon at that famous gig way back when!
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The Violent Femmes did this long before Ms Palmer. Their "Horns of Dilemma" was made up of friends and family and changed all the time. None of them got paid, but they had a lot if fun. No one got down on the Femmes for that.
Bettine
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Hey Bob,
If I was a fan of Amanda Palmer, I'd be absolutely thrilled to get a chance to play on stage with her. All the complainers just need to do is this:
If (enter your musical idol here) offered you an opportunity to play with them for one night, would you do it or free?
Of course you would. If you don't, you're a mercenary not an artist.
Also, why should musicians be so special that they never have to work for free? I would think that almost every person has worked for free in some form: volunteering, unpaid overtime, internships etc etc.
When did musicians become so entitled and boring? I'm embarrassed to be one by some of these reactions.
Keep preaching brother,
Joel Beeson
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Amanda Palmer was probably once just an artist. Then she worked very hard and managed to make herself a brand.
Amanda Palmer has now made over a million dollars, so like it or not she's basically a corporation in my mind.
I can only assume Dresden Dolls had tons of breaks, helping hands and freebies as they were struggling and up and coming. Now that she has had so much success, Ms. Palmer would do well to give back to the artistic community and provide a hand to other struggling musicians, by helping at least a few of them make a car payment or put a little food on the table.
Instead of closing the door behind her.
Bud Melvin
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"Volunteers wanted" - well I don't know, but doesn't that imply 'volunteering' i.e. gratis?
Shapeshifter
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I actually think what Amanda did is brilliant and very 'in'clusive. What semipro musician, who practices his butt off wouldn't love the chance to go hang with these guys, have a great time, and be 'one' of the band for a few hours. I agree getting paid is great, but payment isn't always about money. Amanda's offer isn't attractive for musicians living in Nashville, LA, or NYC, Austin & other major music centers where there's many opportunities to play as a session musician or live venue, because that's your day job.... but I don't think that's who she's targeting. I think she wants the guys / gals who are reasonably 'good' at their instrument who also love to play with others and all they want is an opportunity to be on stage & be part of the whole...... that's magical... better than sex kind of stuff..... I wonder why other artists are pissed.... it seems like kind of a cool thing. She was forthright, upfront and honest about what she expected and what the respondents could expect from the gig.... no one was told one thing and then a bait and switch. The benefit might be that someone who is truly gifted and the right fit gets connected in a way that would have not happened without this opportunity! Another benefit is, everyone will have a great time, because it will be somewhat organic..... What could be better than that!
Go Amanda, I love the way you think!
Robyn Taylor-Drake
Trio Productions, Inc / Songscape Music, LLC
www.trioproductions.com
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I was in a band that opened for Bjork on her VOLTA tour for 4 dates on the east coast and canada.
The last date was at Madison Square Garden. We played to about 1,500 ppl as first support, which in the Garden just feels pathetic, though I was happy just to do it (and barely make cab fare home in the process, the band made 500$ total for the slot).
What happened after that was pretty surreal.
Damien her musical director saw me and my bandmate watching the show from the side of the stage, and on their way out for their encore invited us to play the Reactable synth (that crazy $200k table looking thing with the shapes) with them for the last song.
Being on stage about 19,000 screaming fans in the garden, whether it was my band or not, was easily one of the highlights of my life and something I would pay to do again if I had the option.
I was blessed with the opportunity and experience, and while this isn't Bjork at MSG, anyone who feels the need to get paid (or offended by Amanda's gesture/request) for something like this is severely missing the fucking point.
Gaetano Licata
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Wow if she needed an electric guitarist, I'd be there in a heartbeat! Hell, if she's bringing beer then I'll even cook her dinner.
I've seen her live cause she gave me free tickets via Twitter, but that's not the only reason I'd do it for free. It goes back to the day in 2004 when my band played the small stage at a club in Toronto and Dresden Dolls had the large stage. She was sound checking playing War Pigs on piano. Tell me, who would pass up playing with a cool chick like that!
Cristina Bishop
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I work with synths and drum machines daily, and I *still* think she should be paying. This isn't about jealousy or neo-Luddite-ism, this is about compensating people for their time.
Would you attempt to hire a cabinet maker, or other skilled crafts person, in exchange for "beer and good times"?
No you goddamned would not.
Guitar amps cost money.
Strings cost money
Gas and lodging cost money.
You're out to lunch on this one, Bob.
Ian Campbell
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Dear Bob:
Amanda Palmer is not doing anything new. Check Berry was famous for flying into gigs with house bands at the ready to back him up, and he paid them next to nothing, if at all. The supporting bands just wanted to play with a legend. (See Wikepedia below).
My guess is that in the future, with rising costs of touring, many, many acts will be recruiting local talent for the very same reason. For Amanda, she has her own reasons, but hell, I'd back her up for free just for the enjoyment of being on stage with a good front person with good music and a strong following. It's a win-win for lesser known artists.
tribeca57
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As with your diatribe regarding parenting and children nowadays, you've hit another blind spot, commenting on something you know nothing about, and should have the common sense to refrain weighing in on. Easy to make blanket statements about issues that don't affect one personally, isn't it?
There are precious few paying gigs as it is in this new music biz economy. Her claim that she can't afford to pay her players is laughable. This entire thing is based on greed and arrogance, not progressive marketing ideology or egalitarian "new school" thinking.
For God's sake, figure out who YOUR audience is, and please get your head out of your ass.
Rick Elias
Artist Track Instructor
The Contemporary Music Center
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Another big difference is that Paul Mccartney or Bon Dylan would NEVER expect a musician to play for free. They expect a level of professionalism and pay for it. They have no need to enlist amateurs who will work for free.
Derek See
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Hi Bob,
As always, you nailed it.
Amanda Palmer couldn't have make much of a PR mistake. Her actions provoked you to write about it and tell it like it is. Hard for a musician to get better, more targeted PR than that.
Britt Benston
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Bob, I love the new technology, and was in awe of Ms. Palmer's kickstarter campaign. 1.2 million dollars. I touted her to friends as someone who seems to have gotten it right. It's a bit simplistic to lump everyone who may have an issue with her using free musicians into the "CD's forever drum machine hating progress denying reactionaries" club. I have a problem with this one narrow issue. In the article she said it would cost $35,000 to carry the extra musicians. It just seemed to me that when her project funding ballooned to1192% of her requested amount, there might have been a point where the thought "holy shit, I can bring the full complement out on this tour" might have happened. The world changes, I accept this. The thing people forget is, when change happens, some of the fighting isn't just about trying to go back to the way things were, it's how the new structure gets divvied up. Sheet music publishers in early phonograph days fought for mechanicals, etc. Sitting in with a big name for free to raise one's profile (or even just for the kicks) is a time honored tradition, but it's not cool when big names take advantage of that. It's also a dumb move publicity wise.
John Mulkerin
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Hey Bob, respectfully, I think you're wrong on this one.
I am not a fan of this woman's music - that's not the point. I was glad she was able to raise the money and all that, it was clever how she was able to pass off as independent when her career was made by the majors. Her fans deserve the real kudos.
But the issue here is that she did all of this **at the cost of her fans** and just because she got all her expenses paid by other people she now thinks she doesn't have to pay people to play. She continues to pass her expenses on to others. It seems that the money got to her head. What's next? Come clean my house for free! It's a great priviledge for you to be in personal space!
Basically she is acting like the big corporations - passing on the expenses to the customer and, because she generates business, she feels like the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to her. WRONG.
I think now the people who supported her will think twice. Basically she comes off as a very clever CEO. She's just another business person trying to pass off as "edgy" and "grassroots". I say her credibility will take a nosedive.
P.B.
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No hate here, as I do pro bono work in a few different spheres quite often.
I encourage anyone who feels they would enjoy the experience to play with Ms. Palmer.
It's just a question of nerve, really. I don't think I could ask my fan base who recently supplied me with 1.2 Million to volunteer their time to rehearse and play with me for free at events where I am making money, and use this as an ongoing business model.
But I must hand it to her: it is impressive that he has such devoted followers, who not only do her bidding, but are vehemently defending her in this situation.
My $0.02,
Jason Steidman
http://lightsweetcrude.ca
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There's no hate, it's just wrong. How can someone take your missives seriously Bob about the "middle class" and "fair pay" when you take a neutral position on Amanda Palmer's greed? It seems hypocritical to me.
Ms. Palmer "claims" she can't afford other musicians! And that it's a "privilege" to play for her. What a crock! If she just said that she
wanted free players and wasn't paying them, fine, but don't say you can't afford it after you banked $1.2M on Kickstarter alone, not even including the money made off of whatever else you auctioned off from you bedroom the day before.
Aren't there labor laws anyway? Maybe a petition should be started and then sent to the IRS.
Richard Young
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I think fear might be behind some of this hatred you describe and it's the fear that once the bar is lowered in this fashion it might be difficult to raise it again. Of course this doesn't involve the really good players but it certainly does any one less. And to be honest she isn't asking for really good players - I forgot how she described what she needs - so once again the weeding out of greatness occurs but so does the ability of the less than great to earn money.
I also think the hatred might also be directed toward the musicians who line up to do this. This all could have been avoided if she had just offered them a bit of money. Maybe she could have sold some merch on their behalf. Maybe she could have passed around a hat at the show. I meant, that's kind of what she's doing now only she's trying to fill the hat with string and horn players. Just something other than beer and hugs. Geez.
I have to admit this also reminds me of the days when I used to write music for TV commercials. Used to be that we were paid for all the work be put into making demos. Not a lot but enough to keep us going for the time we were spending. Seemingly all of a sudden composers were not only being asked to compose and produce demos for free but were being asked to do more than one or two. Some companies would hire outside composers - I shouldn't say "hire" because they didn't pay them - and submit MANY demos for free. Yes, this sort of reminds me of this. You might feel differently about this and I might even agree with some of your opposition but to me it is, among other things, just one more example of musicians being in a losing position. Once again this does not effect the great players. Maybe this will inspire more to become great. Yeah, right.
Love your newsletter - I've turned many on to you.
Best,
Stan Harrison
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Artists do have solidarity, which is why us artists are disgusted by the idea that a person who clearly has the means to pay musicians should ask for a "favor" under the guise that she is providing access to some exclusive club.
What is it about Amanda that you think makes her the arbiter of something new and groundbreaking while labeling the artists who cry foul as haters who probably have dial up internet and think that mp3s are the end of music business ?
That is far too simple a conclusion.
In the interest of full disclosure, I too did a campaign to fund a record (through Pledgemus). I applaud and support the concept of allowing fans more direct access. I think fans appreciate the window into the process of what it takes to make a record. Would I love to have raised 1.2 Million dollars? Absolutely. I would have love to raised even a tenth of that, but to characterize my disgust with her saying she can't afford to pay musicians as jealousy speaks volumes to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. I love drum machines and computer generated music and sampling and really fast internet. I'm sure I have a bunch of music on my computer that i didn't pay for. Hell, I even have a soft spot for Auto Tune. Even though I play guitar, if someone invented something that could convincingly replace the guitar, I'd buy one or possibly even two, but I know enough to know that what she's asking for is bullshit. I'm not a luddite. Alot of musicians were thrilled to know that it was possible for "one of us" to raise that kind of money. But for her to then turn around and say that she can't afford to pay is a clear indicator that she is NOT one of us. She's one of them. For you or her to say otherwise is to discount and marginalize every musician who has had to pile into a 15 passenger van to drive to some shitty town to play for 5 people in an effort to put in their "10,000 hours" all the while hoping they don't break a string or a snare head or run out of batteries or crack a cymbal because they need the gas money to get back to the town they call home.
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with an artist asking for people to play for free. I write great songs and I have a crew of first rate musicians who won't even LET me pay them for gigs because they believe in the music. The difference is that they do it for free because they know I don't have a million dollars. If I had even half of that, I wouldn't disrespect them by asking them to play for beer and hugs.
I'm sure that there are plenty of musicians that would love to play with her for free. I can guarantee you that not many of these people make music for a living. I know that makes me sound like an elitist dick, but it's true.
david ryan harris
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Sorry, Bob, but this isn't about envy or jealousy or anything other than a simple code that creative people live by.
The same code that has talented web designers fuming when clients demand spec work. Or when a couple planning a wedding doesn't understand how much WORK goes into photography. Work that needs to be paid for.
Yeah, they could all "suck it up" and "work harder" and maybe one day they'll earn the respect of "not getting asked to do stuff for free all the time".
But you know that's not true. Are you telling me no one in your life has ever bugged you for free legal or career advice? Made you feel obligated to oblige? Even if you say no, how does that make you feel?
Amanda Palmer didn't just have a successful Kickstarter. She blew the whole model out of the water. She made a million fucking dollars. I had a ton of respect for her until this happened.
She complains there's no money left over from recording and marketing to pay a paltry $35,000 to all the musicians she wants to use? She's legitimately claiming to be BROKE?
She is specifically asking for skilled musicians. For people that have put in the time to be good at what they do.
She is asking for pre-existing string quartets. For people that have spent EVEN MORE time above and beyond individual practice to be good, as a group, at what they do.
AND, let's not forget: she is asking for these services so that she can MAKE MORE MONEY. It's that simple.
We're too fucking savvy (thanks in part to people like you) to let this slide. This was not an accidental mistake that happened because Amanda Palmer is too busy blazing new ground to worry about every silly little detail. This was a calculated move that she has defended in the press.
But even if you argue "her fans want to be there, they're happy to play for free..."
Just because skilled musicians might be willing to play for free (because someone is using their status as a celebrity to influence them), it does not make it acceptable to take advantage of that willingness.
Brandon de la Cruz
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Bob,
Why do we have to be lumped in with the Luddites for believing that someone who can afford to pay her musicians should do so? It's like saying the owner of a tiny internet start-up is against innovation because he decided to take care of his employees... and then called out a larger and older corporation with, say, $1.2 million more cash on hand, for denying benefits.
I think generally people have been calling her out on it without dragging her person or her music into it. Artist 'solidarity' means not taking other folks' hard work or talent for granted, and it also means no sense of entitlement-- which you opine on frequently. In the age of Kickstarter, we all need to work a little on our sense of entitlement. I don't think of myself as either a charity case, or some special 'privilege' to play with-- and so I pay my backing band!
Harris
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You are so wrong on this one.
I don't have $1,000,000 and I pay my guys every night. Not paying is fucking bullshit and the same kind of crap musicians have to put up with everyday from idiots. She's not asking people to just come hang, she's asking for pro musicians "you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT!" and she wants you to make a rehearsal "you’d need to show up for a quickie rehearsal."
FUCK HER!
Dave Lang
P.S. A more reasoned response. If the discussion is framed around the concept of her asking her fans to participate in her shows by performing then that's great. Good on her. Not sure I'd want to pay to see it but so it goes. I'm sure there will be people who'll be happy to get up there and play along just to be involved. And their friends will probably buy tickets too - just like in the local bar when they have band warz. Everyone gets to play rock star for the evening.
It's when the discussion is around the concept of using musical interns to avoid paying working musicians that it pisses me off. She's not some struggling musician who can't afford to pay. She can afford it and she's choosing not to.
What motivates her more? I don't know. Who cares.
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Amanda Palmer fucked up here. She was not counting on that certain set of her fans. Perhaps she was forgetting where part of her appeal is.
What she does musically - that sort of artful cabaret chamber pop - attracts those fans that are professional musician-types: people who got pushed from a young age with their instrument, studied at conservatories and music schools racking up huge loans for to make what is relative peanuts playing in orchestras.
What they do get is to be called a "professional". And these people take that credential seriously. They worked hard and they want to be paid. They are dead serious about playing, but they aren't hungry for it in the same way most garage denizen rock and roll bands are.
I'm not knocking those professional musicians. Not at all. They just have a very different mentality than a lot of other people who play, especially rock.
Having once played in a shitty Replacements wannabe band (the furthest thing from "professional") and booking thousands of shows, I know the opportunity to share a stage with an artist you love trumps just about anything you can get paid. The first thing I think when we have a show where we can stick a local/regional act on is, "Who I know that would be most excited to get this gig?"
Now there's almost always a little money even for local support, but it's rarely significant. It usually ain't union scale! It is really about the joy of getting to do it and be part of a show with an artist that matters to you. I think that's what Amanda was going for but she was forgetting about the professionals in her fan base.
Around six or seven years ago, we did a Dresden Dolls date when we first opened Town Ballroom and Amanda and Brian put the word out (already using the web and social media of the time) to get performers to do a variety of carnival-themed acts to join them on stage. None of these performer fans were paid but they undoubtedly had an amazing time. And none of the local professional jugglers and clowns complained, either.
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Donny Kutzbach
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Funtime Presents
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wow, so now that record companies arent around to do it, artists will take care of exploiting other artists...
sure she seems like a nice enough person, and if it was an, "all welcome - come make noise on a big stage event" - I wouldnt say anything...
but expecting and requesting talent and asking for references... and not paying scale... looks like she's the one hating other artists...
but she's a broke musician, so it's ok? suppose she donated the extraneous kickstarter funds to some worthwhile charity to feed people, or buy kids shoes and school supplies
dan
if you havent printed my letters because you dont know who the fuck I am... well, still just a studio owner: soundsculptor.net ... if its because they arent any good...
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Bullshit, Bob.
She's not asking for hobbyists. She's asking for string players and saxophonists, a large chunk of whom probably went or are going to school to hone their craft. And if anyone's out there saying she should dole out union scale, I'd roll my eyes at that. It's two tunes and a rehearsal. But $50 is too much to give to someone who just made your show better and closer to the picture of it you had in your head? For me, it's the principle of the thing. If you're getting paid, pay those who are helping to make it happen.
You can say that she's trying to build a club, and clearly she has. But she's likely reaching beyond that club for this, and it's doubtful that she'll be doling out referrals to the folks that do sign up for this. And before we talk about how I'd jam with Bob Weir and Phil Lesh or the guys in Zeppelin for free, let's remember the difference - if I play with Phil and Bobby and whether anyone likes me or not, my name will immediately be on thousands of twitter feeds, Facebook pages and the like. With Amanda Palmer, someone might catch you for a split second on a cell phone video that they upload to YouTube. She should be making the pot a lot sweeter than she is at the moment.
Paul Abella
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Here's a crazy idea, why not pay the musicians scale for the night? What would that end up to cost? Seven musicians at scale, we're talking what...one thousand dollars maybe? I can understand using musicians from each town, Chuck Berry did that forever. But the move to not pay said musicians is a predatory douchebag move no matter how you or she try to spin it.
Oh, and she should shave her armpits!
Matt Siegel
7 Years Today
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This is brilliant and most regional players should kiss her feet to have an opportunity like this
Scott Brill-Lehn
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I remember a few years back going to see Green Day, when they were touring American Idiot. They had this wonderful gag where they invited up three people from the audience who 'had some skill' to play their instruments for a song. I think the show I saw at the Meadowlands was in front of about 70,000+ people, but I imagine they did it on every date of the tour. I don't remember hearing a single negative word about it, just heaps of praise, how cool they were for letting fans participate. As they say, it's not always the idea that counts, but rather the execution.
Taylor Brigode
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" You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat."
Bullshit. I know plenty of people who believe similar things about the future of music and commerce that share your view and they disagree with what Palmer is doing.
"And these players are the same ones decrying drum machines and synthesizers and every modern innovation that cost a single musician a job. If we had these people rule, we'd truly live in an "Atlas Shrugged" world. One where there's no innovation and the masses are a step behind."
Bullshit again. Well, partly. Plenty of professionals who use and love drum machines, synths and other innovative technologies are decrying Palmer's bullshit move.
Most of the folks that I know, who applaud Palmer's DIY spirit were surprised and disappointed she'd ask this of hard working professionals.
The size of the show is also irrelevant. I can play as a sideman and get at LEAST $100 a gig.
And it cost her a cool million for her new record? Aren't you the one always going on and on about how it's cheaper than EVER to record your own material? Hell, she could've built an unbelievable home studio for that money...
She can pay the rest of the band, but not horn or string players? Kind of insulting to horn and string players....
Hell, why pay any of the band members? Go big or go home, right? I guess string and horn players don't have rent to pay either.
I'm sure you've read Steve Albini's rant on this, but just in case:
http://stereogum.com/1151562/steve-albini-amanda-palmer-is-an-idiot/franchises/wheres-the-beef/
Again, I applaud Palmer for trying to find creative ways (which she's done well) to further her career, but this is kind of insulting, when you consider her fund raising capability.
Bill Seipel
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I'm a musician in Nashville, but would I play for free for the chance to share a stage with one of my favorite artists? In a heartbeat. I can play just about every Stones tune ever made, but the odds of Mick pulling me up to play "Tumbling Dice" is pretty slim. But would any instrument-wielding Stones fan do it for free, or hell, even pay for the opportunity? Sure.
Given that a ticket to a show in most of her venues I'm guessing would be $30-50 with fees, free admission and the chance to play with one of your favorite musicians (and a few free $10 beers, I'm hoping, at least), as a fan, it's a pretty good deal. She'd rather have amateurs who love her music than professionals just showing up and doing a job, and I don't blame her. As a musician, I could get on my soapbox about how everyone who plays on a stage, anywhere, should be getting paid, but I'd be a hypocrite since I'd jump onstage with any of my favorite artists in a heartbeat if I had the opportunity. Sure, it's a cost-cutting measure, but at the same time I think it's another brilliant way to further close the gap between artist and fan.
Moreover, from her description, it's for two or three songs. Not only a) is that ridiculous to hire musicians in every town to play for 10 minutes out of your set, but b) having heard her new record, I'm sure the sound that will be created will be something really unique for both the musicians and the audience. I really think the discussion on her site has been blown way out of proportion, and anyone arguing against what she's doing should think about what they'd do if they had the chance to spend 10 minutes onstage with their favorite band. Also, I'm wondering what these people's opinions are about Bono pulling up fans to play with U2, as he's done many times over the years (including at last year's Nashville show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNF13YQPmQ).
Also, I wonder if some of the angry posts (which seem to be from people who aren't familiar with Amanda besides articles they read about her Kickstarter) are people just wishing they'd thought of this first, or had the kind of fanbase capable of pulling this off at every show.
-Steve Cunningham
Nashville, TN
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Bob,
I think the community's primary issue with Amanda Palmer's request is not so much that she's asking musicians to play for free on what will undoubtedly be a profitable tour, but the condescension with which she does so. Offering payment in "beer and hugs" is comparable to bribing your bar buddies into helping you move -- not a glamorous duty or return. The problem here is with the language involved (and entitlement implied) in the request. Had it been phrased as more of a thinly-veiled contest, i.e. "Audition to play a show with us in your town!" the negative PR would likely be nil.
The uproar over this plea for free supporting musicians is, obviously, further compounded by the vast amounts her fans have already donated. "What happened to that money?" is what they're all asking. From the perspective of a "professional-ish" musician, we've done albums on obscenely miniscule budgets, we've toured in Toyota Camrys and paid rent late to press records in time for the release show. What has Ms. Palmer done with that $1.2 million that was handed to her? There is no transparency in regard to what happened with those donations, and thus it is questionable why a measly $100 or so for a quick sit-in gig couldn't be offered. I have no qualms with Kickstarter campaigns, nor with them accepting overruns of the initial goal, but that money should be used for the furthering of the project funded (which would include any tour supporting such a project). The question posed is why she deems it acceptable to stiff *any* musician playing with her, especially when it is a fan who has (most likely) already financially supported Palmer and her career, whether through Kickstarter or otherwise.
Admittedly, I am not a fan of Palmer's music. Were this an opportunity to sit in with Jack White, I would probably be singing a different song. I would challenge any musician, professional-ish or otherwise, to turn up their nose at an offer to play with one of their favorite artists. These opportunities arise often with no compensation (KISS's opening band, OurStage/Lilith Fair and Guitar Center/John Mayer's "King of the Blues" competitions from recent years come to mind). As I said, it's all in the language; the overwhelming entitlement with which the request is made is what makes it so disconcerting to hear this from an independent artist who (one would assume) should want to give back to the independent music community that has nurtured her and her endeavors so, especially after financing her album-and-then-some via the pockets of the very people she is approaching.
Then again, all press is good press in this industry, right? Perhaps this backlash was part of her plan all along. Either way, it will serve to do nothing more than increase her exposure, which is what her independent career has thrived on thus far. Touché, Ms. Palmer.
Ellie Maybe
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Amanda Palmer should come out and say what she actually does feel is worth her dipping into her own precious pocket to spend her own money on. Because clearly it's not any of the following:
Paying for her record
Paying for her tour
Paying for her PR/Marketing
Paying for her band
At some point the artist has to assume the financial risk all on his or her own. If she fails, she's only lost other people's money. Isn't risk inherent to art?
Amanda's clearly got the money she needs now. But still asking for fans to foot the bill? What's that saying, "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"?
Amanda Palmer is walking dangerously close to hog territory.
Jeremy Silver
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"Kickstarter Millionaire"? Please. I think with a title like that, and a lot of arguments being made, everyone needs to read this first:
http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/
She specified where all the money is going. You get what you pay for. Perhaps she should have put some of that aside for her musicians to avoid the backlash? But that's here nor there. The tour, just like the Kickstarter call to action, is offering fans the opportunity to engage in her art. No one's being forced to contribute, or play in her shows. Some of the arguments made in her blog are by people insulted by Palmer's move, complaining they've been low-balled as professional musicians in wedding band gigs and the like. Please. This is an artist giving fans the chance to be a direct part of her act. I don't listen to her music, but regardless that sounds cool as hell for a fan.
Pissed you're not getting paid? Don't take the gig. Someone else will jump on that chance (and even pay to do it!). Hell, that's what my music industry internships were all about. There were plenty of times I was pissed for spending money to travel, and losing money not working at my part-time job, all while label execs were getting my free labor. But damn did I get to be a part of some cool stuff. And as a recent college grad, I'm proud to say I'm very much on my way to getting a paid industry job now. Take the opportunity for a night, enjoy it, then go back to your part time jobs and wedding gigs.
Deb Keller
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Reading the comments on AFP's post. Like reading comments on Free Republic. Hypocrisy, stupidity, irrational rage, misinformation, threats both dire and empty. Hatred amped up to the nth degree. Ah, Americans on the Internet. They love to huff and puff and blow, hoping someone's house falls down. No fan of AFP but I can only -- with this much ignorant hatred aimed her -- wish her great success.
Larry Prater
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